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Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman seems to be talking about evidence by children, which is covered in new clause 6.
Mr. Michael: As I was saying, those children are going on to face yet another abuse from the very legal system that is meant to protect them. Under that legal system, we currently allow evidence in the form of photographs of and interviews with children to be circulated in prisons and, in some circumstances, in public, to be used as pornography. It is that scandal which the new clause seeks to end. I was merely trying to place the new clause in the context of the wider range of problems facing victims of child sexual abuse and other victims of sexual offences, something that we need to take much more seriously.
As further proof of the seriousness of the issue, I point to evidence made available by "The Cook Report", which showed that the tendency to abuse children is stimulated by the use of certain material. The programme showed interviews with paedophiles, one of whom referred to himself and those with whom he associated as
The tragedy is that many of the 90 per cent. who say in prison that they will be inclined to reoffend as soon as they are released also have their inclinations stimulated by the circulation of evidence which at the moment legitimately comes into the hands of prisoners but which is then passed on, for the use not only of the individual defendant but of others. We owe it to the children who may be the victims of the fresh offences that 90 per cent. of offenders think they are likely to commit after leaving prison to ensure that every step that can be taken is taken to prevent the continuation of such activity.
It is difficult for reasonable people to understand the mindset of those who get involved in child sex offences and, indeed, adult sex offences. However, after speaking about child prostitution when we debated a private Member's Bill only a few weeks ago, I was shocked to receive one particular letter. It was a reasonable letter, which included a name and address and had been thoughtfully typed. It asked why we were concerned about child prostitutes and said:
I conclude by making two final points. First, we are not arguing a new case. It has been made for several years, and although the response of a consultation period may be sensible, it is too little, too late. The new clause would allow the completion of the consultation that the Home Secretary has undertaken, but would also allow him to act now and, at the end of the consultation, to introduce a statutory instrument and proceed to legislation without further delay.
Mr. Alex Carlile:
I start by reminding the hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael), who I think got out of bed on the wrong side this morning, that Committees are selected by the Committee of Selection.
New clause 5 is an awful muddle and it would be a nightmare to interpret. But, having said that, I support its thrust and, if necessary, will vote for it because it tackles an important issue. However, facets of the issue would have to be met if such a provision were to become part of our law.
In particular--I see in the Chamber a few other people who have had the experience of attempting to take instructions from defendants charged with violent or sexual offences in some of Britain's less savoury prisons--it is extremely difficult to obtain instructions over a proper length of time and in reasonable circumstances.
If prisoners are not to be able to have all the papers that are relevant to their cases in their cells--there may be good reasons for that, as the hon. Gentleman suggested--two steps must be taken. Indeed, they are needed whether or not the new clause is passed.
The first is that proper facilities should be provided in prisons so that prisoners can consider all the material in their cases, including material that may properly be put to them dealing with violent or sexual aspects of their cases. The second is that it is high time that prisons provided proper facilities so that counsel can have conferences with their clients in reasonable circumstances, at reasonable times of day and of a reasonable length.
Having said that, I am content to support the new clause for what it means, although, I emphasise, not for what it says, because it says it very badly.
Mr. Donald Anderson (Swansea, East):
The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Carlile) has an active legal practice and can point out some of the practical difficulties involved in taking instructions, often in rather cramped, unsavoury and unsatisfactory conditions.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) on his initiative. I am confident that it is part of a series of suggestions for
reform that he has made which the Government will ultimately, but belatedly, accept, but that they should have met rather more positively at an early stage.
The matter that my hon. Friend raises is one of real concern. It is surprising that it has not been dealt with before. My hon. Friend has given the genesis and development of his proposal. Surely the Government have had ample time since 1994 to accept that there is a real matter of concern here, to consult and to come forward with their own proposal. It is sad that the Government are stronger on rhetoric than on taking practical measures to deal with the real problems. This is a matter which, had the Home Secretary wanted, he could have included in that rather notorious list of reforms at the Conservative party conference, or about which he could have done something by now.
I follow the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery by saying that, although various practical problems arise, I think that we all agree with the principle of the new clause. However, the fact that it is an enabling clause allows those practical difficulties to be addressed by the process of consultation. I note, for example, the duty of the prosecutor to disclose.
The real mischief is leaving material of a violent or sexual nature in the hands of those who might misuse it, either defendants who are not in custody or, more relevantly, those who are in custody. Everyone who has been in practice or is now in practice knows well the sort of material concerned. It may include photographs. Having dealt with nasty multiple rape cases and murder cases involving photographs of parts of bodies or bodies which have been disfigured, one can well imagine the currency of such photographs in prison. However, it is unnecessary for prisoners to take away photographs and so be able to show them around in the prison. They can look at them without having to take them away.
The problem arises more, perhaps, with depositions where there is a series of interviews, perhaps with a child, or where there is a description of a multiple rape or a murder, which might excite the passions of those in prison. The defendant might need adequate time to digest the material. It may be sufficient for accommodation to be made for counsel to take adequate instructions, but we must guard against the prisoner being able to trade in such material in prison, feeding his own and others' addiction. If the Government recognise that there is a problem, they should find practical ways to address justice for the defendant while ensuring that material such as interviews, descriptions and photographs does not become a currency in prison. It is not beyond the wit of the Government to come forward with practical proposals.
I am a little concerned about who decides what material will or will not be made available. At the moment, it looks as though the discretion is with the prosecution, and there will have to be not only joint consultation between prosecution and defence but some form of appeal, if necessary, to ensure that the interests of justice are considered. These are practical problems, but with good will they can be solved.
The other practical question about which I need to be satisfied is the phrase "reasonable grounds for supposing". How can one guess in advance who will use or misuse such material? If the material were put into the hands of a defendant, that defendant would be tempted to misuse it. All defendants would. That will have to be dealt with.
"master of manipulators, extremely adept in lying, and telling our victims, our friends, people that saw us, that they had no idea that we were of this character".
A survey undertaken as part of the programme "Children in Danger: Special" shows that 90 per cent. of paedophiles say that they will reoffend, many of them encouraged by the kind of filth peddled by some of the individuals shown in the programme.
"They are in employment in a pleasant and not too demanding job. They are earning money and they do eat. A good situation to them?"
When there are people with such a mindset, when the material that is required to pursue prosecution can be circulated in prison in such a way as to make a bad situation even worse, and when the evidence shows that 90 per cent. of child sex offenders think that they are likely to reoffend as soon as they get out, surely there is good reason to take a grip on the situation now.
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