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Ms Ann Coffey (Stockport): Come on, get on with it.
Mr. Garnier: My hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood, who I know is a keen critic of Europe, devoted some of his speech to the common agricultural policy. I draw his attention to the fact that the European Union donates huge sums to--I think--the Greek economy to subsidise its tobacco farmers. One could not put a cigarette paper between what my hon. Friend said and what I, eventually, will get round to saying--[Hon. Members: "Hear, hear"]--on Britain's role in European defence and security policy. I fear, however, that we could put a complete cigar box between what the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber said and what my hon. Friend and I have to say.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. David Davis): Not much tobacco is grown in Harborough.
Mr. Garnier: My hon. Friend is quite right. We do not grow much tobacco in Harborough.
My hon. Friend the Minister may be able to form a bridge--in so far as one is necessary--between my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood and myself, but I fear that the gap between Inverness and Harborough is unbridgeable.
There are important lessons to be learnt not only from what my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood said but from the wider political scene in
Europe. We cannot understand Britain's role in Europe's defence and security policy without bearing in mind the Russian elections and what is going on there. There are three dominant themes at the centre of Russian politics at the moment. First, there is the continuing need for reform of the social and economic structure of that much-troubled country. Secondly, there is a desire for protection.
Over the past 10 or so years, there has been severe dislocation in Russian society--not only since the collapse of the iron curtain but before it. Millions of Russians see themselves as victims. They are homeless, poor and out of work and fear that they will not have a home, get a job or have the domestic security that they believe was their right. During the presidential elections, demands for the people of Russia and particular sectors of Russian industry to be protected were advocated.
The third theme that ran through the Russian elections was nationhood. Now, 25 million ethnic Russians live outside the borders of the Russian Federation. The Russians, whether they live within or without the Federation, have a deep and sometimes melancholic sense of nationhood. General Lebed, to whom my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood referred, and who came third in the presidential elections, is the author of "The Dash to the South". I understand that he is now the new ally of President Yeltsin, which leaves Zyuganovas the second-placed presidential candidate--the communist--and his only hope of victory lying in the hands of Zhirinovsky. That must have a profound and direct consequence for us and the way in which we look on our defence and security role in Europe.
Sir Russell Johnston:
I am sorry to interrupt the hon. and learned Gentleman so early in his speech, but surely it was a matter of encouragement that support for Zhirinovsky fell by--I think--3 per cent.
Mr. Garnier:
It was encouraging that Zhirinovsky got 4.8 per cent. or thereabouts--
Sir Russell Johnston:
Five point five per cent.
Mr. Garnier:
It was a relatively small amount but none the less significant when it comes to tactical voting in the second round. I do not want to become too bogged down in the detail of Russian politics in the debate that my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood has initiated.
What is important to us is how the new, developing Russia will regard its near abroad after the shenanigans in Chechnya. How will it regard our desire for an enlarged NATO? Will it want to expand not contract its armed forces, especially its navy, to satisfy domestic concerns and protect what it sees as its expanding capitalist economy as it looks to new markets overseas? How does that touch on us? I suggest that it affects us directly and most vitally.
Politicians of all parties--including the two main Opposition parties and those outside the House--may whip themselves into a lather over local government spending, social security spending and its consequences for future tax breaks, and the BSE crisis which, of course, are all greatly important, but they shrink into
insignificance when one considers the matters that my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood has addressed this morning. Another world exists outside Britain. It is changing and we ignore it at our peril.
Defence matters to us in a world where Russia is politically and economically unstable and unsure of its future and of how it is regarded by the rest of the world. Defence matters when the politicians and bureaucrats of western Europe are talking about closer integration, while our experience of eastern Europe, the Balkans and the former Soviet Union is of disintegration. Some of it, happily, has been peaceful, such as the split between the Czech and Slovak republics. Other experiences of the disintegration in eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union have been profoundly violent. We need look no further than the former Yugoslavia to see an example of that.
One also needs look no further than the former Yugoslavia to see Britain's importance as a European military power with a significant and influential role to play. The work of our forces there is an example of our co-operation with our European allies, our NATO allies, those in the WEU and across the Atlantic as well as within the main continental bloc. I am glad that others have found time this morning to praise and draw attention to the work of our forces in that troubled country.
Defence matters in a world where the collapse of the Soviet bloc and the huge economic strains that that has caused has brought about huge economic migration from the eastern bloc into the west and where economic pressure has forced the peoples of northern Africa to move into southern Europe. It matters in a world where each country wishes to take a more or less aggressive stand against those who wish to move into it for economic reasons as opposed to reasons of racial, political or religious persecution.
Defence matters in a western Europe that will be failing if it refuses to look outside the confines of the European Union and to recognise the need for a strategic global overview, encompassing the transatlantic link with the United States and Canada. Europe must also recognise the importance of fostering relations with Japan and the other democracies of Asia and Australasia, not just commercially but militarily as well. An inward-looking, exclusive European Union that tries to hammer a wish list into a prefabricated mould of politically correct Europeanism, including a European standing army, a European Union foreign and security policy that takes no account of intergovernmentalism, national co-operation and the need for practical answers to questions of practicalities and which wishes to translate the WEU into the European Union and fails to see the continuing need for NATO right across our continent would be damaging and contrary to the interests of this country.
My criticism of those who advocate such policies is not to deny the need for unity of purpose or to say that this country has no place in the security picture of the European continent--far from it. We certainly need to be part of it. We have experience on the world stage as members of NATO and WEU and as one of the two European members of the permanent five on the UN Security Council. We also have military capability in manning and planning and good intelligence services.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip-Northwood read a passage from the European Union report published earlier this month about a desire to bring the nuclear
capability of individual member states such as France and the United Kingdom within the competence of the European Union machinery. That is deeply disturbing and misunderstands the needs of the future development of the European military scene. It misunderstands our natural desire to maintain an independent nuclear deterrent.
All the experience and skills that I have mentioned, our equipment, both nuclear and conventional, our will to protect our national interests wherever they are threatened, within or outside Europe and our determination to back our words with actions suggest that the British approach to the security of Europe is better and more realistic and will work.
Ms Joyce Quin (Gateshead, East):
I congratulate the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood (Mr. Wilkinson) on his success in securing this Adjournment debate and on his choice of subject. This subject is often lost in wider defence debates or wider debates on the European Union such as the one that we will no doubt be having in the Chamber tomorrow. The debate has provided an opportunity to focus specifically on the hon. Gentleman's choice of topic. The choice of subject is timely because of the United Kingdom presidency of the Western European Union and because of the discussions taking place within the intergovernmental conference.
When I saw the subject for debate today I wondered whether a Defence Minister would represent the Government rather than a Foreign Office Minister. I hope that the fact that it is attended by the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office means that the Secretary of State for Defence is temporarily silenced after his disgraceful speech the other evening. He should go back to his history books and remember that it was a Labour Government who helped to set up NATO. We need no lessons in patriotism from him. I was rather relieved to see that the editorial in the Daily Mail described his speech as one puffed up with "patriotic bombast". That described it nicely.
The speech of made by the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood was interesting and was perhaps less strongly marked than usual with his suspicion of anything to do with the European Union, although there was a little bit of that, particularly in his exchange with my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, South (Mr. Marshall).
The hon. Gentleman made many valid points. One which I strongly endorse was that about the protectionist impulses in economic policy which some European countries are showing to countries of central and eastern Europe and to Russia. That is completely unacceptable. We have an economic duty to the countries of central and eastern Europe to be as open as we can. I believe strongly that it is in our long-term interests to be generous and to help create that large pan-European market that is capable of benefiting all the countries involved.
I shall comment on the Opposition's position on some of the issues raised by the hon. Gentleman and others. The Labour party has a strong commitment to NATO and see it as the cornerstone of our defence policy. Active membership of NATO and participation in it is an essential part of our defence strategy. Obviously, we agree with the comments made this morning about the fact that NATO is now, self-evidently, operating in a different European and world climate and that its role has to be re-evaluated in that respect while building on the co-operation and achievements that it already has to its credit.
Obviously, enlargement of NATO will be an important subject for years to come, and we very much welcome initiatives that have already been taken, through the Partnership for Peace programme, with many countries of central and eastern Europe and many countries who were formerly viewed as enemy countries and well outside any co-operative framework with NATO. Such Partnership for Peace programmes are important, as will be eventual enlargement of NATO, but we want enlargement of NATO to take place in a way that does not create new divisions in the European continent. We must consider that important aspect at every opportunity.
That does not mean giving Russia or anyone else a veto over any one country's application for membership, but it does involve ensuring that we work for and build a stable and peaceful European continent for the future. It is an especially difficult time for Russia, as many hon. Members have said. Obviously, we are glad that the elections in Russia took place on schedule, and we are keen, as I believe is everyone in the House, to support the continuing reform process in Russia, to help underpin democracy and to create economic relationships that will be vital for the future.
The WEU was mentioned by all participants in the debate. We welcome recent moves to strengthen the WEU as the European pillar of NATO. We welcome France's decision to reintegrate itself into NATO and to play an active part in the WEU, to which it has always been strongly attached, as it has been to NATO. We welcome the initiatives of the combined joint task forces, which were mentioned by the hon. Member for Ruislip-Northwood, and we welcome the initiatives regarding the Petersburg tasks--which he also mentioned--of peacekeeping, humanitarian relief and so on. We believe that there is room for the WEU to take several important initiatives and act in a distinctively European way, but in a way that does not cause political tensions in the transatlantic relationship. I do not envisage any significant danger of that happening. We want the WEU, not to duplicate NATO activities, but to be able to supplement and enhance the work of the wider alliance.
In terms of the role of the European Union in this process, we feel that the common foreign and security policy should remain a separate pillar in the pillar structure as we know it, and that decisions in the common foreign and security policy should be taken by unanimity. We do not see the European Union as taking over the Western European Union, and obviously there are question marks concerning the future development of a defence role for the European Union, which make progress in this area very difficult.
The 15 countries of the European Union have somewhat different defence traditions. Some have a neutral status, although the type of neutrality of countries
that profess neutral status varies case by case, naturally, because of the history of the countries concerned and their different traditions, and sometimes their different international links or geopolitical situation.
That means that, especially during the intergovernmental conference, it is unlikely that the position regarding European defence co-operation will change dramatically, but it would be interesting to hear from the Minister some more details about the discussions between European Union countries in that area.
We have all had an opportunity to read the report of the reflection group, in which the Minister of State participated, but that document is often very unsatisfactory in that it says, "Some countries thought this, some countries thought that," so we must rely on press leaks to find out what countries said and which countries committed themselves to specific policies. Perhaps, in the interests of openness in the European Union, the Minister might give us a few more details this morning about the breakdown between countries on the key issues of how the European defence identity may or may not develop in future, and what different countries in the European Union regard as the respective roles of the European Union and the Western European Union.
As the wider common foreign and security policy was mentioned, especially by the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston), perhaps the Minister will tell us something about the continuing thoughts of the Government about appointing a European Union foreign policy representative. I understand that the Foreign Secretary favoured that proposal but many of his hon. Friends did not.
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