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Mr. George Howarth (Knowsley, North): The Home Secretary referred to an article in The Guardian about an initiative taken by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Ms Morris) and asked what had become of it. He might be interested to know that I was with my hon. Friend when she met West Midlands police. We met a group of local residents in her constituency. West Midlands police said that our proposals for under- 10-year-olds were perfectly plausible and that it would work with the local authority to introduce them in a particular part of her constituency. That is what became of the proposal. Perhaps the Home Secretary will tell us whether he thinks it is a good thing for children under 10 to be out on the street late at night.
Mr. Howard: Of course I do not. If the police find youngsters on the street in need of protection, they already have powers to take the youngsters to a safe place. The
hon. Gentleman did not tell us is whether the pilot scheme that he and the hon. Member for Yardley asked West Midlands police to carry out in Yardley is to take place.
Mr. Howard: Instead of making sedentary comments, will the hon. Gentleman state from the Dispatch Box that a pilot proposal will take place, because that is not the information that I have received from West Midlands police.
Mr. Howarth: I repeat that we held discussions with West Midlands police.
Mr. Howard: Is a scheme going to take place?
Mr. Howarth: The right hon. and learned Gentleman asked me to answer his question, so perhaps he will be courteous enough to allow me to do so. Discussions have subsequently been held with Birmingham city council. The police and the council are now working on a proposal for a specific part of the Yardley constituency to see whether a pilot curfew for under-10s could be made to work. I understand--I have no reason to believe otherwise--that there is every reason to believe that the pilot project will go ahead.
Unless the Home Secretary has some evidence to the contrary, perhaps he will explain why the local residents, police officers and members of the local authority we met did not feel that the powers available to the police and local authority were sufficient to stop young children under 10 being out on the streets to no useful purpose late at night. If he cannot explain that, we must assume that he supports under-10s being on the street late at night.
Mr. Howard:
I have just explained what powers already exist. The hon. Gentleman has manifestly failed to repeat from the Dispatch Box the words that he was using from a sedentary position a few moments ago. He and the hon. Member for Yardley told The Guardian that a pilot scheme would take place. We have heard nothing since. My information from West Midlands police is that no pilot scheme will take place; the House will draw its own conclusions from the hon. Gentleman's intervention from the Dispatch Box.
Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy):
I am sure that the Home Secretary will forgive me if I take him back to the subject of the debate. Has he had an opportunity to study what the senior judges, including Lord Justice Taylor, have said about the dangers inherent in life sentences being imposed in the manner proposed by the White Paper--the dangers to the victim himself or, more probably, herself?
Mr. Howard:
Of course I have studied that, but I do not accept the views that have been expressed, because the arguments advanced in another place are arguments against any life sentence. If the hon. Gentleman accepts those views, perhaps he will tell the House whether he is against any life sentence. If that line of argument is accepted, there is an incentive for the offender to take more serious action and even to kill.
The truth is that, when someone commits a rape, he is most unlikely to be in the state of mind that will lead him to make a cold and calculating decision about what his next act should be. If he is in that state of mind and makes such a cold and calculating decision, he will know perfectly well that, if caught and convicted, when the judge fixes the tariff part of the life sentence, it is likely to be a different tariff for rape than for murder. That will be something to be taken into account in planning his behaviour. If he behaves in that cold and calculating way, which is extremely unlikely, he will know that there continues to be a deterrent against further serious criminal conduct.
When I announced my proposals, colleagues of the hon. Member for Blackburn rushed to condemn them one after another. The hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) called them "daft". The hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth called them a "farce". Labour's Front-Bench spokesman in the other place called my proposals "deplorable" and hoped that the next Session was sufficiently curtailed to make it impossible for my proposals to become law. Last month, Lord Williams of Mostyn, another Labour Front-Bench spokesman in the other place, called minimum sentences "a perversion of justice". Those statements could not be clearer.
As Labour is root and branch opposed to my proposals, why does the hon. Member for Blackburn find it so hard to echo that aggressive rhetoric in the House? Why does he confine himself to such weasel words? I will tell the House why the hon. Gentleman has thus far been so muted--because he is under orders from the Leader of the Opposition to avoid any headline saying "Labour opposes tough action on crime". I serve notice on the hon. Gentleman that his tactics are transparent and will fail.
At least the Liberal Democrats are honest. The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Carlile) said that I should be ashamed of my proposals. Let me answer him directly. I shall never be ashamed of proposing greater protection for the public from dangerous criminals. I shall never be ashamed of proposing tough deterrent sentences for career burglars and hard-drug dealers. I shall never be ashamed of bringing greater honesty to the sentencing process. The police overwhelmingly support those proposals, and so do the public. I warn the hon. and learned Gentleman that his parliamentary candidates will regret his remarks, even if he does not.
Mr. Jack Straw (Blackburn):
I beg to move, to leave out from House to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:
This is Crime Week but, under this Government, every week is crime week for the British people. So far this week, the British public have been the victims of 150,000 criminal offences--50,000 a day, according to Home Office estimates in the British crime survey.
There was a time when crime happened to someone else. In 1971, The Times commented how, after six years of Labour Governments, crime had simply dropped off the political agenda. Today, however--when the Conservative party has been in power for 20 of the past 25 years--crime, the fear of crime and the experience of crime has affected almost everyone in the land.
Crime has fractured communities. It has forced people to change the way in which they live, and it has forced up the cost of living. Insurance premiums for cars and homes have rocketed far above the rate of inflation since 1979.
The Government's record on crime is the worst of any British Administration since the war, and the worst of any western Government. Crime under the Tories has risen twice as fast as it did under Labour. Between 1987 and 1993, crime in England and Wales rose further and faster than in any of 16 western countries surveyed by the Home Office.
'notes that given the doubling of crime since 1979, the record of Her Majesty's Government on crime is the worst of any British administration since the war and the worst record of 16 western
19 Jun 1996 : Column 895countries surveyed by the Home Office; further notes that the proposals contained in the White Paper "Protecting the Public" (Cm 3190) represent a complete reversal of the sentencing policies of Her Majesty's Government as contained in the Criminal Justice Act 1991; and believes that the comprehensive proposals of Her Majesty's Opposition to be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime will be far more effective in tackling crime and disorder in England and Wales, and in ensuring tough and appropriate sentences for serious or persistent criminals within a proper framework of justice.'.
The Home Secretary spoke for 42 minutes. The House has listened to one of the most puerile and pathetic speeches ever from the right hon. and learned Gentleman, which demeaned his high office. Of those 42 minutes, the Home Secretary devoted fewer than 10 to the ostensible subject of the debate. He devoted the rest of his speech to a White Paper published today, so that he could avoid publicity about proposals that are so embarrassing to him, and to making insults of the kind we are so used to hearing from the Home Secretary.
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