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Rev. Martin Smyth: I press the hon. Lady on that point. First, talk about two communities is often interpreted as division on the grounds of religion, but can people with opposing nationality claims share the same objectives? Secondly, the costs of generating electricity in Northern Ireland are a real problem and I understand that the contract will remain in place until 2002. Is the hon. Lady giving a commitment on behalf of her party that a Labour Government would reduce electricity generation costs in Northern Ireland?
Ms Mowlam: As to the hon. Gentleman's last point, the nature of those costs will be put before the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. The hon. Gentleman is correct in saying that the contract extends until 2002. However, we shall refer it to the MMC and, we hope, it will be dealt with. As to the hon. Gentleman's first point about the two communities and those with different national identities reaching some kind of agreement, he and I and the House should address that issue together. The hon. Gentleman's views and his ability to find ways to co-operate and to build consensus between the two communities are a crucial part of the equation.
Reconciliation between the two communities need not, as he suggests, be rooted in territory, in flags or in domination. It must be based on respect and therefore on an acceptance of each community's allegiances to Ireland or Britain and to Europe. That involves building agreement around institutions that all can share and that fully respect people's sense of allegiance to one nation or another.
That approach embraces the principles of the joint framework document which--together with the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the Downing Street
declaration--Labour recognises is a milestone on the road to peace. They are a testament to the commitment of the two Governments to work closely together in order to make progress in the search for peace. Labour would continue that work with the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland parties in order to reach a balanced settlement through negotiation and agreement.
If any party believes that it will get a better deal from Labour in the negotiations--assuming that we will be prepared to bully or to pressure a particular community in order to reach a settlement--it is badly mistaken. We support and uphold the principle of consent. We repudiate and reject the politics of threat and coercion. We will continue the talks, given the chance, in pursuit of agreement. We will uphold Labour's principles, which are, in essence, about justice, fairness and common sense.
We will also apply those principles in other parts of policy, such as policing. Our proposals improve significantly on those from the Government. For example, we have suggested the election of representatives to the police authority; assigning responsibility for implementing change; and progress in changing the composition of the Royal Ulster Constabulary.
Our principles of fairness and justice will apply to anti-discrimination and fair employment proposals. We have made a detailed submission to the review of fair employment being undertaken at present by the Standing Advisory Committee on Human Rights. There is also a clear Labour commitment on human rights. We have made clear our commitment to the incorporation of the European convention on human rights into law in Northern Ireland, as in Britain, and we will work with the parties--which I hope will be working together already--to develop and introduce a Bill of Rights.
We will complete our consultations and introduce policies that will have a real impact on the day-to-day lives of people in Northern Ireland in areas such as the economy, welfare changes and nursery provision. After the vote in another place earlier this week, we hope that the nursery vouchers scheme, which would destroy chances of nursery education, can be stopped in time to provide decent places for three and four-year-olds.
One sensitive subject, proposals on which should be considered and debated more fully, is that of marches and parades. I have spoken and written often to the Secretary of State on that matter. Obviously, there are no simple answers, but we believe that the Government could give their view on the proposals that have been made by ourselves and others in recent weeks. The proposals include the establishment of an independent advisory group to inform the Secretary of State--not to dictate to him--of possible steps to reduce tensions and meet community concerns; the possibility of prescribing guidelines for the conduct of parades in disputed areas; and a system of prior planning permission, as has been recently proposed. It would be interesting if the Government would respond to those suggestions this evening.
Sir James Molyneaux (Lagan Valley):
I owe it to the hon. Member for Redcar (Ms Mowlam) to follow her on the key phrase she used--"the principle of consent". On the one word "consent", all else that we will consider tonight turns. It is the crucial term and, in some ways, is the only issue that should concern us in coming days.
My respectful advice to the hon. Lady would be that, if we seek consent in the political sense, we should not start with a high-wire act. The media of the world are orchestrated by Mr. Adams who has now become a television producer, given the way he managed and choreographed the photographs at the gate, which was not barred or locked, and the rehearsal that produced those magnificent pictures from the gullible news industry. I dismiss the mistaken idea that, when seeking to achieve consent, one should start with a blaze of glory and a tooting of trumpets on the high-wire act, because, instead of making progress, one falls off.
The fact that I am a modest man with much to be modest about teaches me that the only way to make progress is to go down the scale of options until we find the lowest level at which consent can be maintained. When we have done that, we can then start patiently building on the consent thus obtained, but right hon. and hon. Members should not imagine that we can do it the other way around.
Had this debate been held a week earlier, it would probably have been difficult for any hon. Member to express honestly held views about the farce of what my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) has termed the 21st annual interim period extension device, which we are debating tonight, and how it could be replaced by some practical, permanent method of governing one of the four components of the United Kingdom. We would have been told a week ago to hold our horses, not to stir the situation or to reach for the impossible because devolution is just around the corner. The events of the past seven days have swept away all the inhibitions of two decades. We cannot now be silenced by exhortations to give peace a chance; to win the battle for hearts and minds; or to turn a blind eye to perceived concessions to terrorists in the expectation that those terrorists would be placated by perceived instalments of their ultimate aim.
Over two decades, the majority of right hon. and hon. Members have had reservations, but understandably they have felt that perhaps experiments should be put to the test. We now know the result, and the rescue brigade should not come to the aid of terrorists by insulting our intelligence with suggestions that contacts should be maintained and doors should be kept open to enableMr. Adams and his friends to regain credibility for an utterly dishonest campaign which is as transparent as that waged by Hitler in 1939 and 1940, when he trampled all over eastern Europe and, at the same time, proclaimed himself a man of peace. I suggest that no public figure will want to forfeit respect by allowing himself to be conned yet again.
Rev. Martin Smyth:
Does my right hon. Friend agree that it would be wrong to follow the line of those in the media who misunderstood TUAS to mean a tactical use of the armed struggle instead of the total use of the armed struggle, which Hitler adopted and which Gerry Adams adopts?
Sir James Molyneaux:
My hon. Friend knows the news industry well enough by now to know that, dedicated as it is to the ever-lasting search for soundbites as opposed to substance, it is not surprising that the news organisations fed off each other, brainwashed each other and came to a shallow conclusion without a shred of evidence. I hope that my hon. Friend will not feel that that is too harsh a stricture on the news industry, but I feel that it has a lot to answer for.
Another ceasefire or promise to disarm might spark some interest in the minds of some and might possibly provide material for chat shows, but would not be relevant now. The only real issue is the principle of consent, as the hon. Member for Redcar has said. It is not in the nature of terrorists anywhere to accept the democratic principle of consent. The rest of mankind takes it for granted, but consent exists in the terrorist vocabulary only for the purpose of calculating how a democratic people can be terrorised into consenting. For them, democracy will always have a low priority. The bomb and the gun have to be retained, not as a fall-back position, but as the driving force and the engine to extract concessions that will lead to surrender to ultimate terrorist demands.
Against that sober background, I appeal to the current Irish Government and any future Irish Government not to continue reiterating demands for concessions to republican requirements. That justification has disappeared now that the destruction of democracy is the asking price for a cessation of violence. No Irish Government should contemplate paying that price, even by instalments. Nor should a Dublin Government try to pressurise any British Government to consider such folly. The democratic structures of the United Kingdom must not be mutilated when it has been proved that such a course would achieve precisely nothing in return.
The main purpose of the recent election--the forum and the so-called peace talks--has been obliterated. The Secretary of State's curious requirement--as it is not original, I am not blaming the right hon. and learned Gentleman for inventing it--that there should be all-party support for any structure or option effectively rules out the possibility of devolved government in the foreseeable future. That being so, I shall stop beating my head against that brick wall.
Why does the Secretary imagine, or in what circumstances does he imagine, that the House would require all-party backing for arrangements for Scotland, for example, as my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South has said? Why does the right hon. and learned Gentleman imagine that in the current talks he is likely to achieve results, when he knows, as I know, that, despite our determined efforts when he chaired the strand 1 talks in 1992, we were unable--two Governments and four parties were involved--to achieve agreement? Why is it thought possible now, with two and a half Governments involved--the half being the Government across the Atlantic--and nine or 10 parties, that they will be any more successful in achieving results?
It is to be hoped that the Government, given that the purpose of the election--the forum and the talks--has been obliterated in its main purpose, or main published and alleged purpose, would consider it possible to come to the House for consultation on possible future roles for the structures so recently established.
Soon, I know, we shall have predictable bleatings about the imaginary vacuum, which would probably be not all that much greater than in Scotland and Wales or the regions of England; but I have a duty to counter any anxiety about a possible vacuum, and in doing so I enlist the aid of the business managers and other parties in both Houses of Parliament.
With Northern Ireland ministerial co-operation, we can make fuller use, for example, of Wednesday morning sittings. We must press on with the aim of expanding the role of the Northern Ireland Grand Committee with provisions for sittings in Northern Ireland, in line with its Scottish counterpart. We can encourage Northern Ireland Members, in addition to those who are nominated, to attend legislative Committees of the House and to participate in debates.
In Northern Ireland, we can make more effective the scrutiny of proposed legislation by providing councillors with specialist knowledge with opportunities to discuss all important legislation with Ministers or heads of Departments at post-consultative stage.
As you will remember, Mr. Deputy Speaker, a week ago we touched on ideas for an economic committee based on both Houses of Parliament to buttress the excellent work of the Under-Secretary of State, Baroness Denton, along with that of her Department and the Industrial Development Board. There may have been the usual objections from the vaults of the Northern Ireland Office, but the grounds for such rearguard action have now been conclusively removed. We must start making progress in streamlining the system of governing the United Kingdom, including the Northern Ireland component, which my colleagues and I represent.
The resumption of violence will become a deterrent to investors, and that must be countered. The creation of a new all-party committee, based on both Houses, will do much to give confidence to overseas investors, and I hope will be of great assistance and support to the Secretary of State and his colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office.
As the debate is focused on constitutional matters and not on security, I shall refrain from tendering in public my suggestions on security. It is, as the Secretary of State said this evening, for the Government to decide what new measures are required to defend the Queen's subjects wherever domiciled from terrorism from whatever quarter.
I trust that we have not entirely forgotten or dismissed the suggestion made by the Father of the House, the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Sir E. Heath), for a supremo without ministerial burdens to co-ordinate a counter-insurgency strategy within the United Kingdom and Crown territories. We should not underestimate the benefits to the IRA of its tactical lull in terms of training, targeting and re-equipping over the past two years of the so-called ceasefire.
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