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9.44 pm

Sir Patrick Mayhew: The quality of the debate has justified its extension to three hours. Last year, we had only an hour and a half. The debate has been wide-ranging and has been both general and particular. The easiest way for me to attempt to do justice in summing up the debate in the 15 minutes or so that remain to me is to concentrate on general matters and then deal with particular matters. I shall try to deal with each of the speeches that we heard.

I take great encouragement from the fact that no right hon. or hon. Member who spoke did other than express support for the process of political talks. Everybody who spoke wished to see the process of political talks to be a success. It is true that some thought them more realistically ambitious than others. The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir J. Molyneaux) believes that it is right to begin at a low level, not on a high wire--a phrase with which those of us who count ourselves his friends are well familiar--and work upwards, and much can be said for that.

Nobody has said that the future can be determined other than by the process of talking and reaching an agreement.

Rev. McCrea indicated assent.

Sir Patrick Mayhew: I see the hon. Gentleman nodding in his place as I say that.

Again there has been--I suppose that it is a corollary of the same point--total agreement that a solution cannot be imposed. The record of British Governments, English Governments over the centuries seeking to impose solutions on the misguided affairs of Ireland and Irish people--as they seemed at that time--is not particularly encouraging. I take heart from the common position that emerges from the debate.

There was another common position: the total condemnation of what has occurred; of what happened in Manchester; and of the notion that a Government of a democracy can be made to change their policies by the threatened use of violence.

I listened with particular care to what my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire) said and was sorry to hear him say that he looked back over the past two years and the attitude of the Government--who from

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time to time he has supported--with shame. I feel that he failed to recognise some of the facets of the problems that have faced us, which are important.

It is true that Sinn Fein-IRA are different sides of the same coin, as the Prime Minister said yesterday. It is true that our ambition to see Sinn Fein as an elected party with a substantial vote, able to be represented and taking a part in the talks process has been disappointed. It has not removed its self-exclusion, and that is disappointing. It was our hope that it would. But I do not think that there is any ground for shame at all in Her Majesty's Government having sought to help it to achieve that.

I acknowledged, in response to an intervention by the hon. Member for East Antrim (Mr. Beggs) at the beginning of the debate, that, in some respects, the Government's position had changed during the past18 months, particularly on decommissioning. I acknowledged that, not on a point of principle but on a point of management. I realised that that would expose us to the charge of appeasement. That is not a charge that I believe to be justified, but I do not think that it is a ground for shame.

Let me say to my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne that, if we had to have a Manchester attack--of course, we did not--I would think it advantageous for that attack to result in Sinn Fein-IRA's being condemned without any qualification all around the world. I have heard no one say, "Of course it is reprehensible, but you must see that they have some legitimate grievances." We have all heard that in months and years gone by. It has been said time and again: "If only you had understood the difficulties--if only you had not been such wooden-headed English, so ignorant of Irish nationalist sensitivities." I ask right hon. and hon. Members who are present tonight if they can identify a single person anywhere who has said, "You have to understand it. The British Government could have avoided it."

That has been, as it were, the negative objective that Her Majesty's Government have had. We have, of course, had a positive objective: we have wanted the process of talks, which every hon. Member who has spoken supports, to be truly inclusive of all parties with a democratic vote or mandate. That has been the positive objective, for the obvious reason that, if we are to carry the process through to an agreement which, in turn, will be put by referendum to the people of Northern Ireland and the Republic respectively and separately, it will have a better chance of sticking if it has the support of all parties.

I have not, however, been so unrealistic as to underestimate the prospect of failure. Against that event, Her Majesty's Government have had the negative objective of peeling away from those who rely on violence to secure their political ends any support that they have previously had for violence in a democracy.

I welcome the support of the hon. Member for Redcar (Ms Mowlam) for the two Governments' insistence on the restoration of the ceasefire. Manchester last Saturday showed the wisdom of that. I also welcome her recognition that, if the talks cannot be fully inclusive, they should at least retain the objective of inclusivity.

Let me diverge for a moment to the speech of the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley. He took us to task for supposing that it was necessary in all circumstances to have all-party support for any outcome of the talks. That is not our position. Of course such an outcome is

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desirable, but we have always taken the view, and take the view today, that in any talks process it is the participants who are the masters of the proceedings. If the participants in the process that has now begun conclude that there is a measure of agreement, or any proposal less than unanimity that shall be acceptable, it is well within their remit so to decide, and for agreement to be implemented.

I must exercise confidentiality, but I have good reason to suppose that parties who object to a particular policy within that process would, as good democrats, accept the outcome. It is not a question of saying that everything must be supported by everyone participating in the talks. That would be unrealistic, and would impose a virtually unsustainable condition in many instances.

I must be selective in choosing which parts of hon. Members' speeches I shall deal with. The hon. Member for Redcar mentioned marches. In a democracy, people have the right to parade, demonstrate or express views publicly and peacefully, and I know that she recognises that. In the same way, people have a right to show what they think if they disagree, provided they do so peacefully. The issue of parades is a difficult one, as are so many things in the contemporary scene in Northern Ireland.

We are constantly seeking ways of reducing the prospects of confrontation, but there must be a spirit of compromise. In many instances, what one might describe as the loyalist institutions have shown that willingness to compromise and take a different route. The willingness to compromise has not been evident in Sinn Fein, which organised opposition to the parades and marches. We must be careful not to undermine the Chief Constable's operational responsibility for maintaining law and order, which is why it is not quite the simple proposal that people suggest when they say, "Surely it would be better to have a nice advisory committee." There are many difficulties, but we keep the matter under review. I have it much under review with the Chief Constable and the Deputy Chief Constable, Mr. Flanagan.

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley spoke of the principle of consent underlying everything. That must be right in our democracy; it must be central to the viability of any outcome to the process. I welcome what he said: that the principle of consent exists in terrorists' vocabulary only as the kind of consent that people can be terrorised into giving. We are not in the business of permitting terrorisation; genuine consent must be the basis of everything.

The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley spoke of a new all-party committee of both Houses of Parliament to bolster the work of my right hon. Friend Lady Denton, and I acknowledge that he has been urging this for a long time. He raised the matter in the House as recently as last week's appropriation debate. My right hon. Friend the

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Minister of State will write to him about it, but the Northern Ireland Grand Committee, which I wish to see extend its jurisdiction and capabilities, and the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs are available to discuss economic matters generally.

Although the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley made many enticing remarks on which I should like to comment, in the interests of time I must move on to speeches that followed. My hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Hunter), in a most interesting speech, said that it is time for a fundamental rethink and for a security summit. There is much to be said for a review of security co-operation by the two Governments. I said in opening that we shall base our position on the excellent security co-operation that we have at present.

My hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke mentioned four matters: hot pursuit, co-operation, Irish air space and the sharing of intelligence, all of which should be addressed. There was much merit in his comments, which I shall refer to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and no doubt much will pass between the two Governments in seeking to improve the already excellent co-operation.

My hon. Friend said that the situation should not cause total despair. I do not want to be pedantic when I say that it should not cause any level of despair at all. It should cause renewed analysis, clarity of analysis and, if possible, greater resolution.

I very much agree with the hon. Member for Glasgow, Rutherglen (Mr. McAvoy) about the influence of terrorism on the economy because of the jobs that are damaged. The other side of the coin is that the more jobs there are, the less opportunity terrorists have to lure young people in particular into their toils.

I will move quickly over the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne, much of which I could agree with--but I have disagreed in particular with the analysis that he offered. I have also addressed the speech of the hon. Member for Mid-Ulster.

I will invite the Minister of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), who has responsibility for education in Northern Ireland, to write to the hon. Member for Clydebank and Milngavie(Mr. Worthington) on some of the matters that he raised. We have five education and library boards in a Province that has a population of 1.6 million. When we propose reducing that number to four, our ears are beaten about by people who say, "How dare you do such a thing?" That is a little obstacle to saving some money. This has been a valuable debate--

It being 10 o'clock, Mr. Deputy Speaker put the Question, pursuant to Order [7 June].

Question agreed to.

Resolved,

That the draft Northern Ireland Act 1974 (Interim Period) Order 1996, which was laid before this house on 4th June, be approved.

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TRIBUNALS OF INQUIRY (EVIDENCE) ACT 1921

Motion made, and Question put,

That it is expedient that a Tribunal be established for inquiring into a definite matter of urgent public importance, that is to say, the abuse of children in care in the former County Council areas of Gwynedd and Clwyd.--[Mr. Burns.]

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