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Mr. Gummer: The hon. Gentleman would do well to note how many planning permissions sought previously have not been proceeded with. I do not think that the problem is as worrying as he makes it out to be. In any case, as he knows well, there are no powers under which a moratorium could be brought about, so that is not a possibility.
I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman about the timing of the document. Much of our retail development has brought about what the hon. Member for Leicester, East, in one of his more sensible moments, called the retail revolution. Many people want to use supermarkets. I have never been opposed to them and, as Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, I often commended the fact that people had wider choice and fresher food in city centres than they had ever had before, and at prices that were extremely competitive. I am not opposed to supermarkets, but I am saying that there should be a reasonable balance. That reasonable balance can be achieved by concentrating now on our town and city centres, and that is what I seek to do.
The hon. Gentleman referred to price incentives. It is difficult to imagine how they would operate. No doubt I shall have the opportunity of seeing a Liberal Democrat working party document which, if I know such documents, will be strong on platitudes but not very good on practicalities.
Madam Speaker:
I have the remainder of the day's business to safeguard. More than 40 Members seek to speak in the debate that follows. I therefore require hon. Members to put single brisk questions to the Secretary of State and I require the Secretary of State to answer briskly so that we can proceed properly with our business.
Mr. Peter Thurnham (Bolton, North-East):
Will the Secretary of State ensure that local planning controls properly reflect the needs of shoppers? Is he aware that retail costs in this country are much higher than those in, for example, the United States? What will his proposals do to reduce the high cost of shopping here?
Mr. Gummer:
I shall certainly look at the particular points that my hon. Friend raises. I am sure that he is pleased to see that I have put much emphasis on what local authorities can do to release more land in the centres of cities, to assemble suitable plots and to use their powers to help in exactly the way that my hon. Friend wants.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover):
Is the Secretary of State aware that he should also look at the new gimmick that developers use in coalfield areas in particular? They put in applications for opencast, thereby getting rid of valuable agricultural land, and a planning development comes along later. There is such a development in my constituency, adjoining the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Derbyshire (Mr. Barnes).
Mr. Gummer:
I have not heard such an assembly of prejudices in one question for a long time. The hon. Gentleman must accept that PPG6 makes it quite clear that planning applications for out-of-town shopping centres will not be accepted unless there is no other place for necessary shopping development. That is quite clear, so what he says does not apply.
Mr. Richard Tracey (Surbiton):
Is my right hon. Friend aware of the joy that his statement will bring to the town centre of Kingston upon Thames, which has been nurtured by Conservative councils over the years? Will also assure me that he will protect historic marketplaces such as that of Kingston upon Thames and ensure that parking charges do not get totally out of hand, thus killing shopping? Will he give us assurances on security and street cleaning?
Mr. Gummer:
On street cleaning, Conservative councils are more likely to get the streets cleaned properly, particularly if they contract out the service. My right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary will have words to say about further moves on security. If people live in town centres, that helps security considerably. I have the same affection for historic markets as my hon. Friend, and I am pleased that Kingston has been so well protected by Conservatives in the past, as it will be in future when the present lot gets out.
Mr. Andrew F. Bennett (Denton and Reddish):
Does the Secretary of State accept that the Government's conversion is most welcome? It is also welcome that they have accepted so many of the Select Committee's recommendations. However, does he realise that it is rather late for places such as Greater Manchester, where new developments at Cheadle and Dumplington have done a great deal to damage the existing town centre? What does he plan to do to make it possible to convert many of the empty shops in town centres and suburban shopping parades into housing? That excellent proposal needs to be effected, because empty shops make shopping areas depressing.
Mr. Gummer:
I agree. That is why we are doing a great deal of work on building regulations, for example, which are different for different types of development. If we can make the whole system more sensible and make it hang together, we shall help to encourage that. We are looking particularly at the problem that the hon. Gentleman mentioned. I remind him that, although we responded to the Select Committee, it was because of our moves in that direction and my announcement that the Select Committee decided that the issue was worth examining. Therefore, it is fair to say that the Government have driven the proposal right the way through.
Mr. Michael Fabricant (Mid-Staffordshire):
Does my right hon. Friend realise how much his statement will be welcomed in middle England, particularly in small cathedral cities such as Lichfield? In particular, does he realise that his hierarchy of development--town centre, edge of centre and out of town--and the proactive moves in respect of town councils will be very much welcomed? Will my right hon. Friend explain how he intends to ensure that local councils properly explore the possibilities of development in town centres before it is proposed out of centre?
Mr. Gummer:
My hon. Friend must understand that the guidance is the mechanism by which inspectors make their decisions. Local authorities that do not follow the guidance will find that their decisions are overturned and in many cases they may well find themselves carrying the cost of that. Therefore, local authorities will understand precisely what needs to be done. I am working closely with them and in most cases they have had a change of heart. However, it has been very hard in a number of cities. I am pleased to say that even in Sheffield, the new council leader is beginning to think seriously about participation and partnership.
Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cirencester and Tewkesbury):
Is my right hon. Friend aware that my constituents will warmly welcome his statement? In particular, a group of traders in Tewkesbury have written to me today to thank my right hon. Friend for overturning his own inspector and making a landmark decision under the new guidelines. Does he accept that the new guidelines are particularly necessary in small and medium-sized historic market towns, not least because large developments are of a disproportionate size to the retail base in those towns? Will he instruct his inspectors rigorously to uphold the guidelines, so that I shall not need to talk to him about some cases that may be building up in future in respect of Cirencester?
Mr. Gummer:
My motive for doing that will not be merely to avoid seeing my hon. Friend--but I promise him that not only will I do as he says, but that people who believe that they can get round the rules by renaming their shops and giving them some other sort of title so that it appears that they are not a retail centre, will find themselves caught by exactly the same regulations.
Mr. Robert Ainsworth (Coventry, North-East):
I welcome the further retreat from Thatcherite dogma, inadequate and late though it be. However, does the Secretary of State accept that the damage done while that dogma prevailed, and while planning applications were being accepted over the heads of local authorities throughout the country, was profound and long-lasting? What on earth can he do now, as he shuts the stable door after the horse has bolted? Are there not hundreds of planning applications, which were approved by his predecessor while he sat on the Government Benches, still outstanding and ready to be developed at the expense of town and city centres throughout the land?
Mr. Gummer:
The real problem is something very different. Labour councils in our big cities have destroyed those cities, first by driving business out of them; secondly by stopping private development within them;
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