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7.32 pm
Sir Peter Tapsell (East Lindsey): The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Radice) chided us because some of my hon. Friends who are Euro-sceptics are not here in sufficient number. The reason for that, of course, is that they are supporting a great British national institution called Ascot. They have left me behind as their representative.
I shall start in the same way as the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore) by briefly summarising my personal attitude--as a Euro-sceptic who voted against every stage of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993--towards the European Union. Contrary to what the hon. Member for North Durham said, I do not wish Britain to leave the EU, and few of my hon. Friends who share my Euro-sceptic views have that wish. I want Britain to remain within the EU, but as an independent sovereign nation state governed by Ministers answerable to a Westminster Parliament, whose decisions cannot be overridden by any European institution or court.
In so far as we have already been pushed from that position, I wish to see the key abdicated powers repatriated to this Parliament and our courts.
Mr. Robin Cook:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Sir Peter Tapsell:
I would be delighted to give way, but I cannot because of the ten-minute rule. That is why I so disapprove of these ten-minute rule debates. I would like to speak for an hour.
If the federalists here, such as the hon. Member for North Durham, and those overseas say that my position is incompatible with the treaty of Rome as it has been developed by subsequent legislation and practice, let them try to drive Britain out of the EU. So far as I know--[Interruption.] I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) is not going to snigger throughout my speech. We all know his views. Perhaps he will allow me to put mine.
So far as I know, there is no legal machinery by which a parliamentary democracy can be expelled or suspended from membership of the EU. If some other states want to tear up the existing treaties and start again with a new European political and monetary union, as has been suggested by one or two hon. Members today, a Union from which Britain would be excluded, let them try, and let us use our best endeavours to frustrate them. I certainly have no secret agenda in mind to try to bring Britain out of the EU, and I shall fight tooth and nail in this Parliament and the next, if I am elected to it, to see that we are not driven out by the federalists. If anybody has a secret agenda, it may be them.
Talk about British isolation in all this is greatly exaggerated. How many Frenchmen would be happy for long in a German-dominated EU in which there was no British counter-balance? For France, culturally and politically, it would be a form of national suicide. They know that. Of course Britain could survive and thrive outside the EU. I do not have time to develop the detail
of that argument, but it is worth bearing it in mind that only 9 per cent. of the total profits of British business as a whole is earned in the EU, which means that 91 per cent. is earned outside it. It would be much better for Britain and far better for Europe that we should be in that union of nation states, which our Prime Minister has often described as his aim, as recently as yesterday, and which De Gaulle defined as a "Europe des Patries". There is overwhelming support for that concept among the British people, but for no other form of European Union.
The French language and intellect lends itself to penetrating political statements. Lytton Strachey wrote that, between the collapse of the Roman empire and the start of the industrial revolution, only three men became the intellectual masters of Europe--Bernard of Clairvaux, Erasmus and Voltaire. Voltaire argued that the British political classes were the only ones in Europe capable of understanding the feelings of the masses. That is still true today. It is probably truer today than at any time since 1789.
As the Harris poll, quoted by the right hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney, in yesterday's edition of The Independent makes clear, despite the fact that the classe politique in continental Europe is so committed to the idea of a single currency, the Germans oppose it by 70 per cent. to 29 per cent. and the French by 55 per cent. to 43 per cent. In Britain, there is a huge 4:1 majority against joining a single currency. The Euro-sceptics, of course, represent that 4:1 majority in this country.
Another great Frenchman, Poincare--
Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith (Wealden):
Who?
Sir Peter Tapsell:
If my hon. Friend has not heard of Poincare, he had better start studying European history, as he is so keen on Europe.
Poincare summarised the situation for his own time and for ours when he said:
Chancellor Kohl is a good man, but he is also a good German. He is about to unveil a statue of Bismarck, whom he greatly admires--as I would if I were German. Kohl does not believe in blood and iron, but he does believe in the international aims of Bismarckism. Bismarck wanted Germany to enjoy in peace what it had won by war; Kohl wants Germany to enjoy in peace what it lost by war. They have the same ambition for Germany to be the senior partner in the European business, as my friends in central Europe all tell me when I visit them on my business travels.
After 1871, Bismarckism worked well until the Germans, or the Kaiser, "dropped the pilot". One day, Germany--or God--will drop Kohl. He, good man that he is, is fearful of the deluge that may come after him. He, if not my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East, is unsure of German moderation in the future. The whole European debate now really centres on the choice of the umbrella most suitable to keep us dry against that possible future deluge.
Chancellor Kohl argues quite openly that German moderation, and European peace and prosperity, can be assured in the coming century only by the inextricable involvement of German political institutions and German business interests with those of adjoining European countries, and most particularly with France, in order to avoid, especially, a fourth terrible Franco-German war. [Interruption.] If Chancellor Kohl talks openly about those matters, as he does, there is no reason for my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East to go on sniggering at that particular point in my speech.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes):
Order. I am afraid that the 10 minutes are up.
Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North):
The House may be relieved to learn that I do not intend to refight the last two world wars, although I am sure that Chancellor Kohl will be pleased to learn that the hon. Member for East Lindsey (Sir P. Tapsell) described him as a good German.
To a large extent--understandably--the debate has been dominated by the beef issue. I want, however, to concentrate on some aspects of our relationships with the European Union. There has been a good deal of media comment in the past few months that the number of Labour critics of Maastricht exceeds the number of Conservative critics, and that may have led to a growing feeling that there are more anti-Europeans--if that is the right description--among Labour Members than among Conservatives. It is confusing and misleading, however, to lump together all Labour critics of Maastricht as anti-EU.
I personally have considerable reservations about moves towards too much further integration. I have said that on other occasions, and no doubt I shall express my views in future debates, but a number of my hon. Friends who voted against Maastricht on every occasion are by no means of the same opinion. Indeed, some of those who went into the No Lobby to vote against Maastricht would describe themselves as federalists, going much further. My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Derbyshire (Mr. Barnes) is one of them. It is nonsense to say that Labour critics of Maastricht are all in the anti-European camp.
Although, as I have said, I am critical of substantial moves towards more European integration that certainly would not have the support of the British electorate--all the indications at this stage are that they would not--I have nothing in common with some of the Tory critics of the European Union. I am not necessarily referring to the hon. Member for East Lindsey, or to the hon. Member for Holland with Boston (Sir R. Body), who I believe wishes to speak and for whom I have considerable respect, when I listen to some of the Tory critics of Maastricht and the European Union, I see in them all that I dislike in politics. I see in them and their supporters little Englanders,
backward-looking petty nationalists with an intense dislike of foreigners--although no doubt they will tell us that they go abroad for their holidays.
I know that my views are very different indeed from those of the people I have just described. Those Tory critics are the strongest opponents of the social chapter, viewing it as though it were the plague. I am in favour of the social chapter, and I hope that one of the first actions of a Labour Government will be to see that it is implemented in Britain.
They are also the strongest opponents of a minimum wage. I am not necessarily saying that Conservative Euro-enthusiasts are all in favour of it--I do not know--but certainly the Tory critics of the European Union seem to be the most determined opponents of any form of minimum wage, and time and again show indifference to poverty and deprivation both in Britain and abroad. Since I entered politics so many years ago, I have always been suspicious of people who wrap themselves in the Union Jack and give the impression that they are super-patriotic, while repeatedly showing indifference to those in greater social need.
As I said in an intervention on my right hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook), I thought that the speech made by the Secretary of State for Defence at the Tory party conference was vulgar and deeply offensive. It reinforced my feeling that I do not agree with Tory critics of the EU on so many issues. My immediate reaction was shame: I was ashamed that a Tory Cabinet Minister could make such a speech and be applauded at the Tory party conference--and the Prime Minister was on the platform, more or less nodding in agreement. I did not think that that time would ever come. Can we imagine a Labour Minister making such a speech? Even when we had a different policy on the European Union, which some of my hon. Friends disliked intensely--it was very different from our current policy--I do not remember any such vulgar or offensive speech about foreigners at the Labour party conference. I think that my hon. Friends will agree.
One of the ironies about Maastricht and the European Union is that, while Labour critics of Maastricht protested at the convergence criteria on public spending and related matters, on issues discussed earlier so eloquently by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney (Mr. Shore)--that was one of the main reasons why we went into the No Lobby--the Tory critics held the diametrically opposite view on public spending. They are the most ardent and enthusiastic advocates of public spending cuts.
I recently asked the Library what was Britain's current budget deficit. It amounts to 6 per cent. As we know, the Maastricht treaty lays down a figure of 3 per cent. The Library informs me that, to meet the criterion for Government borrowing set out so firmly in the treaty, a cut of some £20 billion would be necessary. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney said earlier, that would undoubtedly mean substantial cuts in public expenditure.
I find it difficult to understand why the Governments responsible for Maastricht should have placed such dogmatic emphasis on figures that will mean not dealing with poverty and social deprivation in member states, including Britain. Why did they not include criteria about moves towards full employment and about tackling mass
unemployment? The latest figures have been much quoted, but the Library figures reveal that official unemployment in EU member states is more than18 million. Does what has happened in Europe demonstrate how careful we must be about mass unemployment and the ugly political creatures who thrive on such misery, poverty and deprivation? Some of those movements have been emerging in Europe. We need policies that are different from those laid down in the Maastricht treaty. That is why I have been so critical of it.
When anti-German feeling was referred to, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) quoted those disgusting articles, I thought not only of the German victims of Nazism, but of what happened last Saturday. Were they not Germans? As my right hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Stepney said, they were protesting against what I am speaking about, and against the policies in the Maastricht treaty that the German Government want to implement.
"The trouble with the Germans is that there are 30 million too many of them."
The existence of the iron curtain and the menacing threat of Russian communism masked that reality for 45 years after the second world war. But with the reunification of Germany, that ethnic, geographic and historic fact has again inevitably moved back centre stage, as it did for Voltaire and Poincare--who, for the benefit of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Sir G. Johnson Smith), whom I greatly congratulate on his well-deserved honour, was the French Prime Minister and leader after the Versailles treaty. I am sorry that my Lincolnshire French accent is not as good as my hon. Friend's Kentish accent.
7.42 pm
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