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7.48 pm
Mr. Christopher Gill (Ludlow): I preface my remarks by declaring an interest in the meat and livestock industry and by referring to the comments of the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler). Obviously, he is trying to censure my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Agriculture. I remind him that in the sort of Europe that is contemplated by the hon. Gentleman and his party, it will become increasingly difficult to censure Ministers because, in many instances, they are already unaccountable to the House for many of their actions because the decisions are made in Brussels. It is not only unfair but impossible to censure Ministers for those decisions.
When my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health and my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister of Agriculture came to the House on 20 March, they were correct to make a clean breast of it and inform hon. Members about the situation at that time. However, as this debate seems to be an occasion for exercising the wisdom of hindsight, it was perhaps remiss of them not to point out on that occasion that the measures that the Government had taken since 1988 in implementing the ruminant feed ban had been, and continue to be, effective in eliminating the incidence of BSE. I regret that they did not point that out at the time. I regret also that the Government were subsequently forced from that position and that they abandoned the science to which they had correctly stuck hitherto.
I think that it is generally agreed that the link between BSE and CJD is not proved. I remind the House that it is incredibly difficult to prove the negative. As I have said in the Chamber more than once, no scientist will give a categorical undertaking or assurance that there is no link. I believe that beef is safe and that British beef is as good as any, and better than most.
I come now to the question of the cull and must express concern on three counts. I am concerned about the cost. Given farmers' understandable opposition to culling their cattle, generous compensation must be provided to persuade them to do so. That compensation will be in addition to the enormous amount that is already being spent on the 30-month cattle scheme.
I am concerned about the needless slaughter of so many animals. Even as we speak, the Quality Meat and Livestock Alliance is taking the Government to court over the legality of that aspect of the scheme. I share farmers' concerns about the effect of the cull upon the country's herds. While the measures will accelerate the rate of decline of the incidence of BSE in our herds--about
15 animals will be slaughtered before one is found with symptoms of BSE--they will not bring forward the date of eradication of the disease.
Mr. Gill:
I shall not give way. As my hon. Friend knows, our speeches are limited to 10 minutes.
There is no guarantee that, if we carry out the selective cull, the export ban will be lifted. Furthermore, there is no certainty that there will still be an export trade. I noted the remarks of my hon. Friend the Minister, who anticipated that there would be £100 million-worth of exports immediately and that the volume of exports would accelerate rapidly. I remind the House of the comments of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister yesterday, when he referred to the natural prejudices across Europe. I submit that those prejudices will make it very difficult for us in attempting to recover our export markets on the continent. I remind my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary that exports to third countries depend on substantial export refunds. Without them, those exports would not take place.
In the light of those factors, it is essential that the Government conduct a cost-benefit analysis to see whether the cost of implementing the selective cull and continuing the 30-month cull is outweighed by the benefits. If it were certain that the export ban would be lifted, that our export trade would recover immediately and that the date of eradication of BSE would be brought forward, that expenditure might be justified. However, in the circumstances, I think that we should determine the true benefits and compare them with the cost involved.
I believe that there is an alternative use for the money. I submit that we should assist those who have suffered most from the BSE crisis--the specialist beef producers. Those producers of prime beef under 30 months are the innocent parties. They have had to accept much lower prices in the markets and they are now at an enormous disadvantage compared with those who are taking part in the culling scheme. I continue to advocate a deficiency payments scheme as a more accurate, targeted and worthwhile way of helping that sector of the industry. It would also benefit the consumer. Under the old deficiency payments scheme, the British consumer benefited from cheaper beef, farmers' incomes were maintained and the cost was borne only by those who paid tax.
I suggest to my hon. Friend the Minister that it would be wonderful if the Government could puff out their chest and say that, in spite of all the difficulties that BSE has caused, they are now approaching the issue from a cost-benefit point of view. The Government should reject the idea of needlessly culling cattle at great expense and put their money where it would benefit the consumer and the farmer directly.
I have real fears--they were expressed to me at the weekend when I was in Scotland, a country that enjoys a reputation for producing prime beef--that if prime beef producers are not compensated in some way, when they go to market in autumn to buy store cattle, they will not be able to afford to pay the price that the producers of calves require to make a living in the hills. I am sure that my hon. Friend understands that point. It is self-evident
that, if the finisher of cattle finds that his returns are reduced substantially, he will be a poor bidder in the store markets this autumn. The hill farmer who produces store cattle will suffer as a result.
Mr. Charles Kennedy (Ross, Cromarty and Skye):
I wish to respond to some of the idiotic comments that have been made, especially by the right hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Jopling), the former Chief Whip and Minister of Agriculture, who raised a point of order at the beginning of the debate. His remarks were reinforced, to my surprise, by the right hon. Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) and by the Minister of State's facile comments about the context of the debate.
The right hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale expressed constitutional outrage at the Liberal Democrats' temerity in initiating the debate, but, as he should know, we were subject to the usual channels. He also criticised the motion, but I notice that we have not seen him in his place since, such is his outrage and desire to defend the Minister of Agriculture.
Mr. Marlow:
How many Liberal Democrats are here?
Mr. Kennedy:
I think that the hon. Gentleman can count. He is waving two fingers at me, but that is the signal that he usually makes to the Government.
It is appropriate for the Liberal Democrats to use an Opposition day debate to call the Minister of Agriculture to account. We are not here to attack faceless, anonymous civil servants or junior Ministers. The political responsibility for the Ministry of Agriculture rests with the Cabinet-level Minister. We have heard an outpouring of emotion from some Conservative Back Benchers about the attacks on poor old Douglas, but if we read the national press, we find that half the Cabinet has called for him to be moved in an early reshuffle. It is transparent and unpersuasive, to say the least, for Conservatives to cry crocodile tears over the Minister of Agriculture.
Anything that has been said, including by my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Mr. Tyler) in his measured speech earlier, which was critical of the Minister of Agriculture is, as we all know, as nothing compared with what his colleagues have said off the record, on the Terrace, in the Dining Rooms and in the bars in the past few weeks. We have heard criticism after criticism of the inept way in which the Ministry of Agriculture has approached its entire policy. It is appropriate that we should have drawn attention to that in our motion.
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