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Mr. Campbell-Savours: Labour money.
Mrs. Browning: It is not Labour money. How typical that a Labour Member should shout that. There is no such thing as Labour money or Conservative money. [Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The House must settle down, and I must say to the Minister that it is not always helpful to respond to sedentary interventions.
Mrs. Browning: Thank you for your guidance, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall ignore such interventions from now on.
Mr. Welsh: The Minister has increased the cost of all this by £1 billion in four days. How much more is to come?
Mrs. Browning: If we had not been prepared to put public money behind supporting this important industry, I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman would be leaping to his feet demanding that we do so. There is no pleasing some people. You are right, Mr. Deputy Speaker: from now on, I shall ignore interventions.
Several hon. Members mentioned the mature beef scheme. I would have liked to be able to announce the implementation and full details of the scheme by now. The House will know that we have formally consulted on it, and representatives of the industry have been to see me twice during that consultation, but there is a delay, and I welcome the opportunity to explain it to the House.
The Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee has asked some specific questions about the detail of the scheme. I am sure that the House will understand that it is important that the scheme has SEAC's full support. When the committee meets on 2 July, it wants an opportunity to discuss two or three elements of the scheme in detail. It is not my place to lean on the committee. I want it to have full information and to reach its conclusion independently. Awaiting SEAC's recommendations is delaying the scheme, but I assure the House that once we have the green light, we shall be ready to go--and implementation will follow shortly thereafter. That responds to the concerns of the hon. Member for Angus, East (Mr. Welsh), because farmers in Scotland and in the regions are anxious to see the scheme up and
running. Once I have the full details of the scheme, subject to SEAC's approval, I shall bring them before the House as quickly as possible.
Mr. Roy Beggs (East Antrim):
Given Northern Ireland's traceability regime and that its beef herds are relatively free of BSE, and as Northern Ireland is 80 per cent. dependent on beef for its exports, why are beef exports from there being delayed?
Mrs. Browning:
The hon. Gentleman leads me to traceability. The House will be aware of the passport scheme that will be put in place, but I know of the computer database that tracks the movement of every relevant animal in Northern Ireland. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has said, in respect of the outcome of the Florence agreement, that it is hoped to move on exports in the autumn. I share the belief expressed by many hon. Members tonight that, initially, the market will reopen outside the EU rather than within it. When those important export markets are opened, traceability will be crucial. The public will be looking for guarantees over and above those that were given before. Northern Ireland will be well placed to take advantage. Although the passport scheme will provide much more traceability, ultimately we must move rapidly to a UK-wide scheme for tracking and tracing movement.
Mr. Campbell-Savours:
Finally.
Mrs. Browning:
I agree with the hon. Gentleman. Finally, tracking will be a prerequisite for many markets that want to re-establish trade in beef with the United Kingdom.
Mrs. Browning:
I will not give way again.
The feed recall scheme is under way, and from 1 August it will be an offence for mammalian feed to be kept on farms, in stores or in mills. The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) raised several points, particularly on research in the United States. I have the latest information, but it is detailed. It might be more helpful to invite the hon. Gentleman to the Department, so that we may discuss each of his points in depth. We have answers to them, but more work needs to be done before the results of that research can be considered conclusive.
The selective cull policy is designed to reduce the incidence of BSE more rapidly than relying on the reduction of contaminated feed. We estimate that without any slaughter policy, there would be just over 8,000 cases of BSE this year, 5,000 next year and 2,800 the year after. That is in any case an encouraging and rapid downward trend. The purpose of the selective cull is to reduce the incidence of BSE even more rapidly and to provide reassurance in the home and export markets.
Some hon. Members questioned the scientific basis for a selective cull. There is no perfect science for estimating numbers, but from our computer modelling, we can see that the selective cull will enable us to reduce the number of BSE-infected cattle much more rapidly. I believe that the industry recognises that that will be helpful.
I believe that we need to get the detail right with the industry and, as my hon. Friends have reiterated, the policy will need the co-operation and support of the House. We shall be talking to those involved in the industry over the next two to three weeks and we shall make sure that we listen to what they have to say about compensation for those animals that come forward, and we shall--
Mr. Archy Kirkwood (Roxburgh and Berwickshire)
rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.
Question, That the Question be now put, put and agreed to.
Question put accordingly, That the original words stand part of the Question:--
The House divided: Ayes 60, Noes 144.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
Question, That the proposed words be there added, put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 30 (Questions on amendments), and agreed to.
Mr. Deputy Speaker forthwith declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to.
AYES
Ainger, Nick
Alton, David
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy
Barnes, Harry
Bermingham, Gerald
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomery)
Chidgey, David
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Connarty, Michael
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cunningham, Roseanna
Dafis, Cynog
Dalyell, Tam
Davies, Chris (L'Boro & S'worth)
Dixon, Don
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Fatchett, Derek
Flynn, Paul
Foulkes, George
Godman, Dr Norman A
Hall, Mike
Hanson, David
Harvey, Nick
Hinchliffe, David
Home Robertson, John
Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Jamieson, David
Johnston, Sir Russell
Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Kennedy, Charles (Ross,C&S)
Lewis, Terry
Loyden, Eddie
Lynne, Ms Liz
McFall, John
Maclennan, Robert
Maddock, Diana
Mahon, Alice
Maxton, John
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll & Bute)
Morgan, Rhodri
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)
O'Hara, Edward
Pearson, Ian
Rendel, David
Salmond, Alex
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Dennis
Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Tyler, Paul
Wallace, James
Welsh, Andrew
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Wilson, Brian
Mr. Archy Kirkwood and
Mr. Don Foster.
NOES
Aitken, Rt Hon Jonathan
Amess, David
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv)
Atkins, Rt Hon Robert
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V)
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)
Baldry, Tony
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Beggs, Roy
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Booth, Hartley
Bowis, John
Brandreth, Gyles
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Browning, Mrs Angela
Budgen, Nicholas
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ru'clif)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Conway, Derek
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Day, Stephen
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, Iain
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Fabricant, Michael
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forth, Eric
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Rt Hon Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Gallie, Phil
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Hague, Rt Hon William
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy
Hargreaves, Andrew
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Heald, Oliver
Hendry, Charles
Hicks, Sir Robert
Horam, John
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Jack, Michael
Jessel, Toby
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Leigh, Edward
Lidington, David
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Andrew
McLoughlin, Patrick
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Merchant, Piers
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Nicholls, Patrick
Norris, Steve
Oppenheim, Phillip
Porter, David (Waveney)
Powell, William (Corby)
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Hereford)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smyth, The Reverend Martin
Soames, Nicholas
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spink, Dr Robert
Sproat, Iain
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sweeney, Walter
Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Townend, John (Bridlington)
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Viggers, Peter
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Ray
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Wood, Timothy
Mr. Richard Ottaway and
Mr. Roger Knapman.
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