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Jobseeker's Allowance
17. Mr. Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and Employment if she will make a statement on the future of the mechanisms in respect of the jobseeker's allowance administered by her Department. [33214]
Mr. Forth: The mechanisms necessary for delivery of the jobseeker's allowance will be in place by 7 October 1996 and reviewed as necessary thereafter.
Mr. Burden: The Minister is surely aware that in the first year of the jobseeker's allowance it is estimated that 90,000 people will lose all their entitlement to benefit and that about 150,000 will lose part of their entitlement. Is the Minister familiar with the term "social insurance" and, if so, what would he say about a private insurance company that collected contributions on one basis then, without asking the customer, cut the benefits? Would not
he urge that customer to seek the advice of a solicitor against that private insurance company operating under false pretences? Why does not he operate the same standards for his own Government?
Mr. Forth: The hon. Gentleman must occupy a peculiar world if he believes that every entitlement and
every benefit that has ever existed could never be changed in one direction or another. If he looks back at the record of the previous Labour Government, however long ago it may be now, he will find that that Government felt quite free to change entitlements, usually for the worse, for a large number of people, so I do not even understand the basis of his question.First Scottish Standing Committee
3.30 pm
Mr. Michael J. Martin (Glasgow, Springburn): On a point of order, Madam Speaker, of which you have been given notice.
It is my unpleasant duty to inform the House that, at the meeting of the First Scottish Standing Committee yesterday afternoon, I drew attention to the presence of Roseanna Cunningham, the Member for Perth and Kinross, Mrs. Margaret Ewing, the Member for Moray, and Mr. Alex Salmond, the Member for Banff and Buchan, not being members of the Committee, in the part of the Committee Room reserved for the members of the Committee; and the hon. Members having declined to withdraw, the Committee ordered
That the Chairman do report Roseanna Cunningham, Mrs. Margaret Ewing and Mr. Alex Salmond to the House.
Madam Speaker:
I understand that the Leader of the House intends to move a motion relating to privilege.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Chairman of the First Scottish Standing Committee, appointed in respect of the Education (Scotland) Bill [Lords], shall have power to order any Member who is not a member of the Committee to withdraw immediately from the Committee Room and the Serjeant at Arms shall act on such orders as he may receive from the Chairman in pursuance of this order.--[Mr. Newton.]
3.32 pm
Mr. Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan): The motion before us is to give the Chairman of the Scottish Standing Committee powers. My argument is that the House should not give the hon. Gentleman such powers, certainly not until such time as the House has debated the issue of the conduct of Scottish business, which has been a running sore in the House for many years.
I intend to be brief, not just to stay within the rules of order, but also because I would not dream of depriving English Members of their right to watch the semi-final of the European championships later this evening.
I start by pointing out some of the precedents for motions such as this, some of which might surprise many hon. Members--because, from time to time during the past 20 years, every Opposition party has been involved in similar circumstances.
The first precedent I want to consider was in 1972 during consideration of the Local Government (Scotland) Bill, when three Liberal Members of Parliament and three Labour Members of Parliament, two of them still distinguished Members of the House, went on to the Committee although they were not members of it.
The Members concerned were the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston), the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Sir D. Steel), the former leader of the Liberal Democrats, the late Jo Grimond, the late John Mackintosh, the late John Robertson and the late Tom Oswald.
In conversation with the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber last evening, I reminded him of the precedent, and he remarked to me that that was something that he did as a younger Member of the House. I must take some comfort from the fact that perhaps that implies that I could still be classified as a younger Member.
Those Members in 1972 challenged the fact that Members from Scottish constituencies were not given the facility of serving on a Committee examining an extremely important Bill.
During the first sitting of the Standing Committee scrutinising the Housing (Scotland) Bill in 1988, the hon. Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan), still a Member of this House, interrupted the proceedings; the hon. Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Martin) was also in the Chair on that occasion. Although the Committee was suspended twice, the hon. Member for Springburn did not seek leave on that occasion to bring a motion before the House, and there was no debate in the House.
The argument used at the time by the hon. Member for Falkirk, West was that he was affronted by the fact that Members less qualified than he, from English constituencies, were allowed to debate and decide on Scottish matters, whereas he, a Scottish Member with suitable qualifications, was excluded.
Mr. Salmond:
It seems that I have quite a choice.
Mr. Anthony Coombs (Wyre Forest):
If the hon. Gentleman's objection is that English Members may vote on the Education (Scotland) Bill, was it inconsistency or hypocrisy that led him and his Scottish National party colleagues to see fit to vote on the Nursery Education and Grant-Maintained Schools Bill recently, even though it applied only to England and Wales?
Mr. Salmond:
Before I answer that, I must correct the hon. Gentleman on one point. I am not objecting to English Members serving on Scottish Standing Committees. I object to Members from English constituencies serving on them--[Interruption.]--an important difference, which the hon. Gentleman does not seem to appreciate. Many Members who represent English constituencies are Scots, and some Scottish constituencies are represented by English Members.
Mr. Coombs:
Answer the question.
Mr. Salmond:
I am making the point that people who serve on Standing Committees should have a responsibility to their constituents. Members without a single affected constituent can, it seems, decide key areas of Scottish business.
Mr. Salmond:
I do not want to have to appeal to the Chair for protection, but Conservative Members should learn to conduct themselves in an orderly fashion. When I have finished answering the hon. Gentleman, I shall gladly give way to the Chairman of the Committee.
The former, an experienced Member of this House, should know that my colleagues and I make it our practice not to interfere in English business. The most recent example of that was the Family Law Bill. If the hon.
Gentleman checks the record, he will find that none of us voted on that measure, because it concerned specifically English business. It was, however, quite clear that the nursery vouchers Bill for England was going to be used to pave the way for nursery vouchers in Scotland.
Mr. Michael J. Martin:
I should point out for the record that, when the Committee was reconvened and my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan) was present again, I asked him to leave, and he left. So there was no need to come to the House to seek any powers. I say this just in case the hon. Gentleman is implying that he has received different treatment.
Mr. Salmond:
The hon. Gentleman should check the record, which he may not have with him at the moment. I remind him that he twice suspended that Committee, and then suspended it until the following Thursday. The Committee did not sit on the day in question, because the hon. Member for Falkirk, West was still in his place. The date was 19 January 1988, so the hon. Gentleman should check the record--
Mr. Salmond:
Far be it from me--[Interruption.]
Madam Speaker:
Order. Mr. Salmond has the Floor.
Madam Speaker:
Order. The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) has the Floor, unless he gives way.
Mr. Salmond:
I will not give way to the hon. Member for Springburn until I answer his question. The hon. Gentleman should note that, on 19 January 1988, the first sitting of the Scottish Standing Committee could not go ahead because the hon. Member for Falkirk, West did not leave the Committee. I understand that the Chairman of the Committee suspended the sitting until the following Thursday, but did not move a motion to report the hon. Member to the Floor of the House. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman has other information.
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