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'(3A) The Secretary of State shall not approve any transfer scheme which does not make explicit provision for the maintaining during the 25 years following the transfer of transmission services in counties with below half the average population density of the United Kingdom as a whole of at least as good a quality as obtained at the time of the transfer.'.
Amendment No. 254, in clause 126, page 105, line 16, at end insert--
Government amendments Nos. 139, 140 and 164.
Mr. Sproat:
There will be a number of occasions during our deliberations today when Government new clauses and Opposition amendments have quite properly been grouped together. For the convenience of the House, I propose to speak first to the Government new clauses and amendments and then to listen to what others have to say about theirs. I will then reply afterwards--
Dr. John Cunningham (Copeland):
But briefly.
Mr. Sproat:
I shall do my best. I am glad that we can start by agreeing.
The amendments fulfil the commitment that I made in Committee to table an amendment on Report to achieve broad tax neutrality in the sale of the BBC's transmission assets. Similar arrangements have been made in the past in relation to Government privatisations. While we have agreed that the proceeds arising from the sale of licence fee-funded assets should be available to the BBC rather than returned to the Exchequer, we feel that it would be wrong effectively to tax the licence fee payer in relation to the sale of these transmission assets.
We have agreed with the BBC that the proceeds of sale will be invested in the digital technology that will be necessary for the corporation to maintain its place as the United Kingdom's main public service broadcaster.
The purpose of new clause 31 and new schedule 3 is to clarify certain technical and accounting aspects of the sale of the BBC's transmission services and to provide the BBC with greater flexibility in its structuring for sale. That will enable the BBC to achieve maximum value for the assets.
The purpose of amendments Nos. 139 and 141 is to make it clear that the transfer scheme relating to the BBC's transmission assets can take place for a consideration, which can be shares or securities. The amendments simply provide for flexibility for the structuring of the sale so that the BBC is best able to achieve maximum value from the arrangements.
Amendment No. 10 concerns the commitment that I gave in Committee to table an amendment, for the avoidance of doubt, so that pension rights and liabilities are capable of being transferred by the BBC in accordance with the transfer scheme established under clause 125. The amendment would add pension rights and liabilities to the list of property to which such a scheme may relate at paragraph 3 of schedule 5. Therefore, pension rights will be brought explicitly within the scope of the transfer scheme. Under clause 126, the Secretary of State's approval is needed for any transfer scheme made by the BBC which will provide an additional safeguard for BBC transmission staff.
Dr. Lewis Moonie (Kirkcaldy):
New clause 17 deals with the transfer of the pension rights of employees of the BBC transmission service. It has been grouped with the range of issues to which the Minister has just referred. I have no objection to any of his proposals and I do not intend to debate them any further.
The Labour party seeks to secure fair treatment for the 850 employees who will be transferred into the private sector as a result of the proposed sale, should it go ahead.
It appears that a regular feature of privatisation legislation is a detailed debate on pensions. Indeed, most privatisation legislation contains a sizeable schedule relating to pensions, which is carefully scrutinised and often improved--as was the case in relation to the other two privatisation Bills that I have examined in Committee: one relating to the British Technology Group in 1991-92 and the other to AEA Technology in 1994-95.
The Bill, as it stands, contains nothing on pensions for those employees, and our new clause attempts to remedy that situation. The issue of pensions for the BBC's employees was debated in another place and in Committee. On both occasions, Ministers promised that amendments would be brought forward to safeguard the pension rights of BBC employees when they transferred to new companies.
The Government's response to the concerns that were raised in the other place and in Committee has been to table amendment 10, which adds the words:
The Labour party's new clause 17 is much the same as that which was tabled in Committee, and it was suggested to us by the Broadcasting, Entertainment and Cinematographic Trades Union, which represents many staff in BBC transmission. The Government have claimed that the new clause is defective in that it seeks to match the provisions contained in the sale of the Independent Broadcasting Authority.
However, the important part of the new clause is the granting of powers to the Secretary of State to intervene in the division of assets. The Secretary of State should have that power and should be prepared to use it so that the staff of BBC transmission get a fair deal. It should not be left to the BBC to decide what is correct or what is best for its employees. However good its intentions may be, it cannot guarantee it--only the Minister can.
The employees in this case are entitled to a fair deal, and they are not getting a fair deal from the Government's present proposals. I trust that, on reflection, the Minister will see fit to accept our new clause. It does not instruct him to do anything other than to oversee the transfer of funds--something that has been done in every previous case.
Mr. Cynog Dafis (Ceredigion and Pembroke, North):
We have heard about protecting the interests of the BBC and of pensioners--and quite rightly so. My amendments Nos. 51 and 52 and those tabled by the hon. Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing) are about protecting the interests of viewers--particularly those in areas of low population density, including much of Scotland and of Wales.
It seems peculiar that so few conditions are attached to the legislation in relation to privatising the BBC transmission network. As I understand it, the BBC will draw up a scheme that will be approved by the Secretary of State for National Heritage. I assume that any approval of that sort would depend on close liaison with the Secretaries of State for Wales and for Scotland. However, I do not think that that process is enough. When the railways were privatised, there were detailed provisions to protect the services and the users of those services. Those provisions were in primary, and not simply secondary, legislation. The railways privatisation included a minimum service requirement and the privatisations of British Telecom, electricity and gas followed the same pattern.
I ask the Minister--it is not a rhetorical question; it requires an answer--what will stop a privatised transmission company deciding to run down the network in less populated areas on the grounds that they are not commercially viable or attractive? What guarantees can the Minister offer that that will not occur? We need guarantees to the effect that television reception will be provided as of right and that there will be no marginalisation or disadvantaging of peripheral regions or regions of low population density.
Mr. Ted Rowlands (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney):
I apologise for interrupting the hon. Gentleman, but I remind him that any scheme devised under the Bill will not be subject to formal approval or amendment by the House.
Mr. Dafis:
That is correct. Measures of that sort should receive the assent of the House and I assume that that provision should be in the legislation. They should be part of the process of placing orders or regulations, which would bring decisions back to the House. The legislation gives serious cause for concern. We shall return to the question of transmission in a later debate, but I ask the Minister to consider my questions carefully now.
'(3a) the Secretary of State shall withhold his consent for any scheme which does not provide for the enhancement and subsequent maintaining of transmission standards during the 25 years following the transfer in areas whose population density is below half the average density for the United Kingdom as a whole.'.
"rights and liabilities of the BBC under any agreement or arrangement for the payment of pensions, allowances and gratuities,".
to an existing section of the Bill on transfer schemes. The problem is that the existing section of the Bill--paragraph 3 of schedule 5 on page 143--is only about rights and liabilities that shall be capable of being transferred and not about those that it will be compulsory to transfer. In Committee, the Minister said:
"the Government will introduce an amendment on Report for the avoidance of doubt along the lines of what is provided for the Broadcasting Standards Council in schedule 4(4)."--[Official Report, Standing Committee D, 11 June 1996; c. 638.]
However, schedule 4(4) is a much more positive statement than amendment No. 10. It includes a statement to the effect that service before the transfer date will count as the equivalent after the transfer date. The Government are not avoiding doubt by introducing this amendment--they are increasing doubt in the minds of the BBC's employees.
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