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Access to Schools (Disabled Persons)
Mr. John Heppell accordingly presented a Bill to ensure the findings of the Access Audits (as laid down in the Education Act 1993) be reported to Parliament; to improve access to schools; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Thursday 18 July and to be printed. [Bill 165.]
Orders of the Day
Broadcasting Bill [Lords]
Dr. Lewis Moonie (Kirkcaldy): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris): With this, it will be convenient to discuss new clause 42--Concessionary television licence schemes (sheltered accommodation)--
'.--(1) Part II of Schedule 2 to the Wireless Telegraphy (Television Licence Fees) Regulation 1991 (S.I., 1991, No. 436) shall be amended as follows.
(2) In paragraph 1(c), for the words "either lines in one of the dwellings within the group or" shall be omitted.'.
Dr. Moonie: I shall say at the outset, in case anyone is in any doubt, that I shall not seek to divide the House on new clause 18, which seeks to exempt caravans and mobile homes--used for holidays, not for permanent residential purposes--from the requirement to possess a television licence. New clause 18 would amend the television licensing regulations, and we have tabled it to highlight an anomaly that many hon. Members will have noticed through the contents of their postbags.
Only in recent months has the BBC, through the licensing authority, been collecting licence fees for caravans and in a number of other areas. At present, only tens of thousands of pounds have been collected from that source, compared with the £1.7 billion from the general licence fee.
A legal ruling forced the BBC to start collecting that money, although it is obvious from the regulations that every holiday home, even if a television is taken there for only a week, every caravan, every boat, even every lorry driver's cab, has always required a separate licence.
In Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) highlighted an anomaly in the licensing regulations relating to sheltered accommodation. The Minister kindly agreed to table new regulations to rectify the problem. I hope that, in turn, the Minister will agree to consider this matter in some detail.
It is obvious that second homes that are occupied for much of the year, such as those that hon. Members occupy in London, should be subject to the full licence fee. It is also obvious that commercially let properties should be subject to the full fee. But it may be possible to come up with a scheme for a lower-price supplementary licence in certain cases, or a similar, more pragmatic, arrangement.
The new clause gives the Minister the opportunity to undertake to review the regulations in general, in order to make them more satisfactory and to tidy them up. I hope that, for everyone's benefit, he will take that opportunity.
Mrs. Margaret Ewing (Moray):
I want to comment on new clause 18, but my main remarks will be addressed to new clause 42 in my name.
As we all know, caravan sites comprise a variety of establishments. I have recently received letters from one in my constituency which consists mainly of static caravans, and I have written to the Department on the issue. Most of those static caravans are used by old-age pensioners. The possibility exists for a rebate on their television licences for the five months during which the caravan site is closed, but that means a substantial amount of administrative work and bureaucracy.
I wonder what expense such organisations face in ensuring that those who are eligible benefit from that concession. To reclaim such a sum would involve a huge amount of bureaucracy and cost. I hope that the Minister will refer to that.
New clause 42 relates to sheltered housing, which I understand was debated in Committee. I want to consider some of the anomalies that have resulted from the various regulations on that issue. This is a complex sphere, which must be addressed in order to give people in sheltered accommodation a concession on their television licence fee.
Having read the papers, I understand that the redefinition of sheltered housing eligible for concessions appears in SI 1988/899, and consolidation regulations were brought into force by SI 1991/436. That meant that a communal facility was not required. The Department of National Heritage is responsible for setting the fees and the content of the regulations.
The Department of National Heritage and its predecessor have left huge anomalies in the regulations. Since I tabled the new clause, hon. Members from other parties have spoken to me on the subject. Those anomalies are causing much concern, and often anger.
A sheltered housing complex in my constituency has one warden and one deputy warden, who take equal responsibility for all the residents. There are no communal facilities, but the warden visits all the residents each day, monitors the alarm system and assists with medical appointments. Concessionary television licences are allocated to the residents in one group of houses, but not to those in the other section of the complex, because the warden is resident there. I cannot see the rationale behind that argument, and I ask the House and the Minister to look again at the anomaly.
Yesterday and today, we have been celebrating the memory of those who lost their lives in the battle of the Somme. The elderly community deserve our support. We have a piecemeal approach to concessionary television licences for sheltered accommodation. The anomalies must be addressed, to eradicate the sense of injustice felt by many of my constituents. I sincerely ask the Minister to take on board the possibility of reviewing all the legislation which applies to the concept of concessionary licences for those who live in sheltered accommodation.
Mr. Roger Gale (North Thanet):
As I represent a constituency with a large number of mobile home parks and touring caravan parks--in common with other hon. Members representing Kent and south coast constituencies--I must express my sympathy with new clause 18.
Those who take trailer caravans on holiday and park them in the excellent caravan parks in Thanet find it quite incomprehensible that, while they are away--not using the television at home--they should suddenly require a second television licence to use a portable television in the caravan. That applies equally to those using portable televisions in canal boats and other forms of mobile habitation. I very much hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will look sympathetically at the new clause.
Mr. Joseph Ashton (Bassetlaw):
A couple of years ago, I sat on the Select Committee on National Heritage when it examined in depth the anomalies relating to television licences. As any hon. Member who receives representations on this will know, the system is a shambles from top to bottom.
Many of my constituents are pensioners. Some are unemployed miners who had to take early retirement. They use some of their redundancy pay to spend the summer on caravan sites at places such as Skegness. They enjoy watching television when they are away, and they continue paying for it when their houses are locked up. Suddenly, out of the blue, they receive a letter saying that they now have to pay again.
I took up the matter with the BBC licence fee unit. The Select Committee discovered that, since that unit took over from the Home Office about five years ago, it has been much tougher and harder, without achieving much more success--except for sitting ducks such as poor pensioners.
The letter I received from the licence fee unit referred to
The letter referred to my constituent Mrs. Perry, who lives in Holderness close, Harworth, South Yorkshire. The local council gives pensioners free bus passes. If pensioners do not want bus passes, they can exchange
them for the equivalent of a black and white television licence costing about £35 a year. Astonishingly for a rural area, 30 per cent. of pensioners prefer a television licence to a free bus pass. Many of them shop in the village shop. They do not travel long distances on buses, and travel into town only about twice a year at Christmas, so a television licence is extremely useful.
Anomalies have existed for many years. At one time, big hotels such as the Savoy had one television licence for 400 bedrooms. Very smartly, the Labour Government of 1968 changed that. When I first became a Member of Parliament, we told the then Labour Government that the Savoy hotel should be treated no differently from old people's sheltered accommodation. There is a link, although it may be horizontal rather than vertical. That was how the cheap television licence came into being. Every pensioner in sheltered accommodation with a warden paid a shilling--5p--and the BBC did not like it at all.
"a change as a result of legal advice we received".
Who asked for legal advice? Who demanded that lawyers should look into the matter? The licence fee unit demanded it, in order to take more cash. It was nobody else. The letter states that the licence fee
"was called into question and we took legal advice."
Nobody asked the licence fee unit to take legal advice. The House did not ask it to do that. I do not know whether the Minister made such a request. There was certainly no debate in the House. Those people receive a bonus according to what they bring in.
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