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Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes): Order. Before the right hon. Gentleman continues, let me say that, although I know that he has established a link between the Bill and the general privatisation issue to his own satisfaction, it is a very thin, weak link. It would be better if he related his remarks more closely to the Bill.
Mr. Foster: Far be it from me, Madam Deputy Speaker, to argue with your statement that it is a rather
weak link, but I thought that I had established a stronger link than appears on the Order Paper, and I should have thought that the link on the Order Paper would allow me to make a few remarks about the privatisation of HMSO. But of course I accept your ruling.
Mr. Garrett: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Does your ruling mean that--notwithstanding the amendment's reference to Second Reading of the Bill resulting from the privatisation of HMSO--we must assume that no reference can be made to the current state of the privatisation and its impact on my constituents?
Madam Deputy Speaker: There must be a link with the Bill. If the hon. Gentleman looks closely at the amendment, he will find that it is cautiously worded. That, I think, reflects the understanding that, although passing reference can be made to the privatisation, it cannot become the main topic of the debate.
Mr. Foster: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I will end my remarks in the next few minutes, but I do not think that I should do so without reminding the House that, according to his original announcement, the Chancellor's initial intention was to deal with uncertainty--uncertainty that was caused by the Government in the first place.
The Chancellor's preferred bidders are now making it clear that the period of uncertainty that has been so damaging to HMSO, and especially to its staff, has been completely unnecessary. HMSO had had great scope to expand its business while remaining in the public sector, but under privatisation the uncertainty, far from being dealt with, will continue. Each bidder makes it clear that further job losses will ensue after privatisation, and there is a growing belief that the work force will decline from its present 2,500 to about 1,500. Consideration is already being given to the closure of plants around the country.
The Chancellor will remember that, on 18 December 1995, when he was arguing that legislation was not required, he gave my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) an assurance about HMSO units in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. He said:
What possible excuse can the Chancellor now have for persisting with the privatisation of HMSO? The bidders have no plans for it to sell in wider markets, and no plans to raise capital in the private sector. The proposal has already caused huge uncertainty for HMSO and its staff over the past two years; the staff has been continually downsized, at great public expense; some £26 million has been spent on redundancies over the past 18 months, and further sums are still to be spent. The staff do not want the privatisation, and HMSO's customers certainly do not want it. There are still reservations in parts of the House.
Madam Deputy Speaker:
Order. In his enthusiasm, the right hon. Gentleman may have forgotten my
Mr. Foster:
I thought when you were addressing my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, South (Mr. Garrett), Madam Deputy Speaker, that I had brought in a reference to the Chancellor's earlier statement about there being no need for legislation. Having dealt with that extensively, I thought that that brought me back within order--but I have reached the final paragraph of my speech.
Mr. Anthony Steen (South Hams):
It is very rewarding to be in the Chamber, Madam Deputy Speaker, when you remind hon. Members other than me that they should not depart from the limited subject of the Bill--
Madam Deputy Speaker:
Order. The hon. Gentleman must remember that I do not exclude him.
Mr. Steen:
That is why I prefaced my remarks in such a way, Madam Deputy Speaker. You will be pleased to know that, as a result of your strictures, my speech has been cut dramatically.
I want to make a limited comment on both the Bill and the statutory instruments. We should welcome the Bill. When the Government find something that is not right and bring it to the House to try to put it right, we should support the Government and the Minister. I shall certainly do that this afternoon. An error was made, but it was not made by the present Government: successive Governments made an error in not spotting the problem. It was discovered only as a result of some digging in the archives. We should congratulate my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster on giving us such a clear explanation of his actions.
As I said in my interventions, the suggestion that something is buried in the closet, that there is some secret or that the Opposition have been given an excuse to raise any number of hares is not what this modest measure is about, but it does raise one or two issues. First, statutory instruments have clearly become a fashionable device. In 1946 there were not many of them, but in the last two years 8,097 new statutory instruments have emerged. Only 30 have been repealed, however. Whereas in 1946, or 1964, the printers were not greatly occupied with statutory instruments, in the past few years they have printed an awful lot of them. In the absence of this helpful measure, they would all have to be printed in the House, which would in fact be impossible. This simple Bill is merely intended to correct an anomaly.
We spent 16 hours and 11 minutes on the Floor of the House, and 92 hours and 56 minutes in Standing Committee, debating the Bill that became the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994, which was mentioned a number of times by the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Foster). I am not saying that,
as a result of the Act, the Government have not pursued deregulation. They set up a Deregulation Select Committee as the flagship of the whole policy, but, regrettably, only 30 deregulation orders have resulted in the 51 hours it has sat. Such orders are not statutory instruments, but is an amendment needed to the Bill to allow the deregulation orders to be lawful? Otherwise, deregulating gaming machines, greyhound racing, parking equipment and the long-pull order may be ultra vires.
There may be a nexus between statutory instruments and deregulation orders, even though they appear to be separate. It would help to know whether the 30 deregulation orders that have come out of the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act should be added to the 8,097 statutory instruments, or whether nothing further is needed to make those 30 orders lawful. It would be appalling if, in 50 years' time, we found that the Deregulation Select Committee were passing orders and having them printed in a way that we could put right today, so could my right hon. Friend the Chancellor deal with that point in his winding-up speech?
The Bill has given us an opportunity to raise such points and the problem of the statutory instrument, which is becoming more and more a way of life in the House, creating more and more rules and regulations. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor has come to correct an anomaly, but the statutory instrument has become a modus vivendi. To pass statutory instruments has become a culture. I should be upstairs considering one now. Like human lemmings, we just rush on. As you often say, Madam Deputy Speaker, "We must move on," but no one dares ask why. There is a danger that we will pass more and more statutory instruments and find a new device for getting them printed in new and more exciting places, without tackling the issue.
Mr. Jim Marshall (Leicester, South):
I should make it clear at the outset that I am a member of the parliamentary group of the Graphical, Paper and Media Union, that I was formally sponsored by it, but that I now receive no sponsorship personally. Union members who work in Her Majesty's Stationery Office will be as disappointed as me at your ruling, Madam Deputy Speaker, when you made it clear to my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Foster) that you were not prepared to permit a much wider debate on the issue surrounding the privatisation of HMSO.
My view remains that we still need a further opportunity to discuss the privatisation and, if you are not going to permit it on this occasion, Madam Deputy Speaker, I hope that the Government, through the occupant of the Chair, will arrange a further debate. Clearly, problems surround the privatisation. Fears remain. All HMSO employees have the right to have those fears voiced in the House of Commons and to receive some response from the Government.
I repeat the point that I made to the Chancellor in an intervention. I am still astounded that this illegality could have persisted for 30 years without anyone having spotted it. The Chancellor referred specifically to the 1946 legislation. It is clear from that legislation that the printing of statutory instruments by private contractors is not permitted.
It may not have come to light for 30 years, but could the Chancellor give us a little more detail on how--not when--it came to light in the context of the discussions on privatisation? He was specific on the dates, but when I asked him my question, he did not pay specific attention to the point, so I would like to know the mechanics of how the error came to light. I am not accusing the Chancellor of behaving dishonourably. I just want a clear and specific answer, if there is one.
In view of your ruling, Madam Deputy Speaker, I must tread carefully, but I can remain in order for a couple of minutes without your having to draw attention to my lack of order. I refer to two comments by the Chancellor. He said that the Bill would have no effect on the date of the HMSO sale to the private sector. If it is not going to delay the date, will he please give us the specific date the transfer is likely to take place? We were told that the sale might be in June or July. We now hear rumours that it could take place as late as September or October, so will the Chancellor clearly say when it is likely to take place?
The Chancellor said that the printing of statutory instruments was marginal to HMSO's business. I heard the figures that he quoted, but clearly it would have some impact on HMSO jobs, although the effect would be marginal. In that context, the right hon. Gentleman said that the point of the Government's policy was to safeguard jobs--a point to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland referred before he was ruled out of order. The Chancellor said that the point of substance was
"I can give the hon. Gentleman an assurance that the future of those units, and any others, will be made clear before any contract is negotiated and signed."--[Official Report, 18 December 1995; Vol. 268, c. 1281.]
How does that square with the trade union side's evidence that, following discussion with the bidders, some bidders are more interested in the capital value of such sites than in running HMSO? When will the Chancellor make clear the future of the units mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow? His deadline for completion of the sale of HMSO is fast approaching.
"to safeguard jobs and expand job opportunities. HMSO should be allowed to operate in both public and private sector markets."--[Official Report, 13 December 1995; Vol. 268, c. 999-1000.]
That is the Government's basic position. They believe that the privatisation of HMSO will safeguard jobs and provide greater opportunity. Does the Chancellor believe that any of the four present bidders will be able to fulfil the Government's aspirations?
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