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5.18 pm
Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark and Bermondsey): I apologise to the House for the fact that I am dealing with this issue, rather than my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith). Were he not at home for family reasons, he would be here in his capacity both as the person shadowing the Department from which the Bill comes and as the person who, coincidentally, replies on behalf of the House of Commons Commission on these matters, which involve the view of the House and of Madam Speaker, on behalf of the House.
The Bill reminds me of a late and much lamented constituent of mine, Paul Eddington, who provided great amusement and happiness in his representation in "Yes Minister" of discussions behind closed doors, and sometimes not, between the Prime Minister and members of his Cabinet. That portrayal was in theory simulated, but many of us thought that it was not far from the truth. The Bill is real "Yes Minister" legislation. I am prepared to accept the Duchy's explanation that the measure arose from the discovery that the body responsible for producing parliamentary papers has been acting illegally for 30 years--an extraordinary conclusion.
The other person who would have made a meal of this debate, if he had been on form and taken an interest, was the late and also much lamented Ian Gow, the previous but one Member of Parliament for Eastbourne. He would have enjoyed commenting on the measure, because it may be a mouse of a Bill but it raises an important constitutional principle.
Clause 1(1) states:
The Chancellor did not tell the hon. Member for Leicester, South (Mr. Marshall) how the people responsible for producing parliamentary papers acted illegally for 30 years. Surely somebody had written down that certain work had to be produced in-house, whereas other work could be contracted. The Bill is about the fact that, for 30 years, HMSO contracted out statutory instrument printing when it was not allowed to do so. What explanation has the Chancellor been given? It is hardly accurate to say that the circumstances have been lost in the mist of time, in the sense that the restriction was not breached from the beginning. I have not heard the Chancellor argue that the printing of statutory instruments was contracted out from 1946 to 1965--he said that it suddenly happened.
I accept that it may have been cheaper to contract out that work, and may continue to be. However, it would be even more bizarre to revert to the legal position for the time during which the Bill passes through both Houses, then change to the new legal position that was the legal position all the time. I do not imagine that Mr. and Mrs. and Miss Public go to an HMSO sales office principally to buy statutory instruments. Nevertheless, there is a market for those documents among libraries and local government offices and, as secondary legislation, they are an important part of the constitution.
As the hon. Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen) said, there are numerous statutory instruments. One such measure will come before the House later--the Landfill Tax (Qualifying Material) Order 1996, SI 1528. There are many such measures, and they are important.
I have a direct interest and an indirect interest to declare. The Parliamentary Press is located in Mandela way in Southwark, in my constituency. I was present at
the opening of that press, which serves both Houses, together with former Speaker Weatherill. Bills, Acts, Lords Minutes of Proceedings, Order Papers, Vote bundles, the debates in both Houses, the proceedings of Select Committees and Standing Committees, statutory instruments, the London Gazette and associated parliamentary papers
I pay tribute to the work done at the Parliamentary Press, including by some of my constituents, and to its professionalism. I share the view expressed my by hon. Friends in previous debates on HMSO--I shall not rehearse those points, for reasons that you have made clear, Madam Deputy Speaker--for we have never been persuaded not to continue the existing arrangements, by which the work is done well. It is a highly efficient and competent operation, and every employee who has contacted me wants the press to remain as it is and under its present management, not sold off.
I have an interest also in the Sovereign Press at the Elephant and Castle, which is also in Southwark, but SE17 as opposed to SE1. That is the small bit of Southwark that the boundary commission designated to be absorbed by my constituency in the next general election, which the House has approved. I hope also to represent that part of Southwark, the electors willing, in the next Parliament. I am grateful for the work that both presses have done, in-house or otherwise, on statutory instruments in the past.
When I intervened on the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Foster), I queried why a deregulation order was needed last December but not now. If there is now no need for such an order, why not? Who decided that, and when? Although I have not made an analytical survey, one matter that excites the House is that it is regularly asked to approve statutory instruments when their date of implementation has passed. My understanding is that, because of the pressure of business, hon. Members are bounced--a measure can be put into effect without being debated. If I am wrong, I stand to be corrected. Otherwise, it seems that we are perpetually debating retrospectively, which is extremely bad law making.
Although I am a lawyer, I never wanted to be a parliamentary draftsman. However, I do not understand why parliamentary draftsmen proceed in the way that they do. Why have a separate Statutory Instruments (Production and Sale) Act 1996 rather than amend the 1946 legislation and have a measure entitled the Statutory Instruments (Amendment) Act 1996? As someone who once practised in the courts, I know that the bane of lawyers, let alone of lay people, is to track back linked pieces of legislation. Hon. Members have a duty not only to speak in plain English but to legislate in a simple and linked manner.
The Bill is only a small amendment to a more substantial Act, and it does not add to that Act at all. The notes on clauses say that the Bill is to amend sections 2(1), 3(1), 3(2), 4(2) and 8(1)(c) of the 1946 Act. For heaven's sake, why do we not call it the Statutory Instruments (Amendment) Bill, so that everyone knows the score?
This is a mouse of a Bill. I accept the Chancellor's arguments that, having discovered the illegality, we should correct it. I only wish that the Government
corrected their other illegalities when courts in this country or in Europe rule that they are acting illegally, and that they did not seek retrospectively to change the law to pretend that what was illegal is now legal. Generally, it is bad law to act retrospectively--but it is a very odd state of affairs when the people charged with producing the law were, for 30 years, behaving illegally.
Mr. Freeman:
With permission, I should like to deal briefly with some of the points raised in this brief debate.
The right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Foster) raised points of substance. First, he correctly referred to my remarks of 18 December 1995, when I informed the House that, on the advice that I had, no legislation was needed--primary or secondary--to effect the privatisation of HMSO.
On 18 March, I informed the House that I had to qualify that statement. For the convenience of the House, I shall remind the right hon. Gentleman of what I said in that Supply day debate. I mentioned the need, in order to wind up the trading fund, to introduce an
Secondly, the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland asked whether the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994 and an order under that Act were ever relevant, and whether they could be relevant. That is news to me. The 1994 Act--despite whatever any research papers may have said--could not have been used to deal with the situation because it could not contain retrospective powers. Of course, well-intentioned comment on the situation, was and still is in perfectly good order, but at no stage was it the Government's intention to proceed, for the reasons that I have given.
Thirdly, the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland asked why there was a delay. He has extensive knowledge of government, and he aspires to an even greater experience of government. He knows very well that in these circumstances I could not come to the House with a problem without a solution. If I came to the House with a problem and said that I would go away and think about a solution, he would wisely, sensibly and quite correctly criticise me. I have long since realised that the identification of a problem is an easier stage than identifying the correct solution.
Fourthly, the right hon. Member referred to the disparity between what was said in the information document, which was issued at a much earlier stage--in April--and what was said in the House. I do not have the information memorandum in front of me, but I recall--if I am wrong, I shall write to the hon. Gentleman--that it referred in very general terms to the fact that arrangements for the production and issue of statutory instruments were under review and that arrangements might change. That was true at the time.
We informed the bidders of that fact. The bidders were first advised of the change at the same time as I answered a parliamentary question, on 19 June, specifying the problem and identifying the solution. That was at exactly the same time as the House was informed. I shall certainly re-examine the point to ensure that the information I am now providing on the basis of my recollection and brief notes is correct.
Fifthly, the right hon. Member asked whether the residual HMSO can comply with the 1946 Act, unamended. The Government legal advice that I have is that, by ensuring that the Queen's printer has an additional 16 staff and by leasing assets owned by others--a possible privatised stationery office--the Queen's printer could be acting in accordance with the 1946 Act by using the printing presses of Sovereign Press at night. That is why I argued that a residual HMSO could meet the requirements of the 1946 Act, unamended.
Finally on the questions of the right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland, perhaps I can be positive and constructive and announce--although you asked me not to talk about privatisation, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I shall not--that, in response to his perfectly fair point about the timing of privatisation, I should like to meet the trade unions before a preferred bidder is selected. I should like to listen to their concerns, as raised by the right hon. Gentleman--which I shall not seek to answer now--about location and the continuation of certain printing plants, and their views about the vires, standing stability and future plans of the shortlist. I give the right hon. Gentleman, and through him the trade unions, that assurance. I look forward to that meeting.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen) asked whether an amendment was needed to make all deregulation orders valid. Of course the answer to that question is that deregulation orders are statutory instruments. Therefore, I am happy to confirm to him that they would be covered, even those issued--there are no more than a couple of dozen, but the rate is improving--since the 1994 Act came into force. But, of course, that was before the Bill was published.
The hon. Member for Leicester, South (Mr. Marshall) asked why the practice remained undiscovered for 30 years. The hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) also asked that question, among others--which I shall try to answer in a moment. I do not have a convincing answer. I suspect that the increase in the volume of secondary legislation after the war sensibly caused HMSO to concentrate on contracting out to save money for the taxpayer.
"The Statutory Instruments Act 1946 shall have effect and be taken always to have had effect".
This is a rewrite history Bill. Whatever actually happened, if the Bill becomes law, we will have decided that it did not happen that way. How often since the present Administration came to power in 1979 have they introduced a measure to legislate retrospectively? I can think only of the War Crimes Bill of 1991. We should not take that step lightly, no matter how serious or insignificant the legislation--and such a course should put us on our guard.
"for the wheels of parliamentary democracy to turn"
are produced day and night. I am informed that those publications amount to 250,000 pages a year.
"order under section 6 of the Government Trading Act 1990 simultaneously with the sale."--[Official Report, 18 March 1996; Vol. 274, c. 89.]
No other legislation, primary or secondary, is needed to effect the privatisation of HMSO, because, as I have said, the Bill has nothing to do with the privatisation of HMSO. The privatisation of HMSO can proceed regardless of whether the Bill is passed. The Bill's purpose is to achieve the wider objectives of good government and to ensure the avoidance of any doubt in the minds of those who might seek to challenge the validity of statutory instruments.
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