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Mr. Steen: The Chancellor has explained very well the reasons why the Bill is necessary. Will he tell the House what would happen if there were a Division on the Bill, the Government were defeated and the Bill did not make progress?
Mr. Freeman: The right hon. Member for Bishop Auckland made it clear that the Opposition also believe in good government. The Bill itself is not the issue, and I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his assurance on that score.
The hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey asked three questions. The first related to the procedure for statutory instruments subject to the negative resolution--they come into operation, whether or not there is a debate. If there is a successful prayer against a statutory instrument, it is revoked, but without prejudice to the validity of anything done in the interim. That is provided for in section 5 of the Statutory Instruments Act 1946. We have been operating according to these principles for 50 years. It is always open to any political party to suggest a change, but they are the rules. If an instrument has to be approved in draft--under the affirmative resolution--it cannot be made without the necessary affirmative resolution.
Mr. Simon Hughes:
I am not trying to trap the right hon. Gentleman, but does he agree that, to the outside world, it must seem nonsense that legislation comes into force, we then debate whether we want it and, if we throw it out it, it disappears although it was law for the period between its coming into force and our debating it? That must be bad practice and should be improved, if only to give the public the certainty that something becomes law once the House agrees it and not before.
Mr. Freeman:
Labour and Conservative Governments since the war have resisted amendments moved in Committee to strike out the negative and insert the affirmative when it comes to order-making powers under primary legislation. There is always a battle between the legislature and the Executive, and that battle will continue for a long time. It is appropriate always to focus on the merits of the argument in a particular case.
Secondly, I cannot say how many Acts passed since 1979 have involved retrospection, other than the War Crimes Act 1991. However, I shall write to the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey on that matter.
Thirdly, the hon. Gentleman asked why the Bill was called the Statutory Instruments (Production and Sale) Bill rather than the Statutory Instruments (Amendment) Bill. I suspect that it has something to do with the long title and that the hon. Gentleman knows that as well as I do.
I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 192, Noes 235.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
Main Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 60 (Amendment on Second or Third Reading), and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 61 (Committal of Bills),
Bill immediately considered in Committee.
Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
AYES
Adams, Mrs Irene
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham
Alton, David
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale)
Armstrong, Hilary
Ashton, Joe
Austin-Walker, John
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret
Beggs, Roy
Bell, Stuart
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Blair, Rt Hon Tony
Bradley, Keith
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)
Brown, N (N'c'tle upon Tyne E)
Byers, Stephen
Caborn, Richard
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Cann, Jamie
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Dr David (South Shields)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Tom
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE)
Cunningham, Roseanna
Dafis, Cynog
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l)
Denham, John
Dewar, Donald
Dixon, Don
Dobson, Frank
Donohoe, Brian H
Dowd, Jim
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eastham, Ken
Etherington, Bill
Evans, John (St Helens N)
Faulds, Andrew
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Flynn, Paul
Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foulkes, George
Fyfe, Maria
Galloway, George
Garrett, John
George, Bruce
Godman, Dr Norman A
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mildred
Graham, Thomas
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Gunnell, John
Hain, Peter
Hall, Mike
Hanson, David
Hardy, Peter
Heppell, John
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hodge, Margaret
Hoey, Kate
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)
Hood, Jimmy
Hoon, Geoffrey
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Hutton, John
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Adam
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian (SE Staff)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW)
Keen, Alan
Kennedy, Jane (L'pool Br'dg'n)
Khabra, Piara S
Kilfoyle, Peter
Lestor, Joan (Eccles)
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loyden, Eddie
McAllion, John
Macdonald, Calum
McFall, John
McKelvey, William
Mackinlay, Andrew
McLeish, Henry
McWilliam, John
Madden, Max
Mahon, Alice
Mandelson, Peter
Marek, Dr John
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)
Martlew, Eric
Meale, Alan
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Milburn, Alan
Miller, Andrew
Molyneaux, Rt Hon Sir James
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Morgan, Rhodri
Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wy'nshawe)
Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Mowlam, Marjorie
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Paul
O'Brien, William (Normanton)
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Powell, Sir Ray (Ogmore)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Primarolo, Dawn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Ms Joyce
Radice, Giles
Raynsford, Nick
Reid, Dr John
Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Rogers, Allan
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Salmond, Alex
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Short, Clare
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Chris (Isl'ton S & F'sbury)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Smyth, The Reverend Martin
Spearing, Nigel
Spellar, John
Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
Steel, Rt Hon Sir David
Stevenson, George
Stott, Roger
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Rt Hon John D (Strgfd)
Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis
Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Watson, Mike
Welsh, Andrew
Wicks, Malcolm
Wigley, Dafydd
Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W)
Wilson, Brian
Wise, Audrey
Worthington, Tony
Wray, Jimmy
Wright, Dr Tony
Mrs. Bridget Prentice and
Mr. Greg Pope.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey)
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby)
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Amess, David
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Atkins, Rt Hon Robert
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Rt Hon Kenneth (Mole V)
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Bellingham, Henry
Bendall, Vivian
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bowis, John
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (South Dorset)
Budgen, Nicholas
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire)
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, Iain
Durant, Sir Anthony
Dykes, Hugh
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Rt Hon Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Sir Peter
Gale, Roger
Gallie, Phil
Gardiner, Sir George
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Cheryl
Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorst, Sir John
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archibald
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hanley, Rt Hon Jeremy
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Hayes, Jerry
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)
Horam, John
Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howell, Rt Hon David (G'dford)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Jack, Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Robert B (W Hertfdshr)
King, Rt Hon Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Rt Hon Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n)
Knox, Sir David
Kynoch, George (Kincardine)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Lang, Rt Hon Ian
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Leigh, Edward
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lester, Sir James (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Madel, Sir David
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Mates, Michael
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Dr Brian
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick
Mills, Iain
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Monro, Rt Hon Sir Hector
Needham, Rt Hon Richard
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Oppenheim, Phillip
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Pickles, Eric
Porter, David (Waveney)
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Rathbone, Tim
Redwood, Rt Hon John
Renton, Rt Hon Tim
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne)
Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent)
Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Sackville, Tom
Sainsbury, Rt Hon Sir Timothy
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Sims, Sir Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Sproat, Iain
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Tracey, Richard
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Viggers, Peter
Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Walden, George
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Ray
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Nicholas (Macc'f'ld)
Wood, Timothy
Yeo, Tim
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Mr. Simon Burns and
Mr. Roger Knapman.
That the Bill be committed to a Committee of the whole House.--[Mr. Wood.]
Question agreed to.
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