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NHS Trusts
4. Mr. Ainger: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairmen and chief executives of NHS trusts in Wales to discuss finances for 1996-97. [35549]
Mr. Gwilym Jones: My right hon. Friend met national health service trust chairmen on 18 October 1995.
Mr. Ainger: Since then, the trust chief executives and chairmen have become aware of the settlement that is coming down from the Welsh Office through the Welsh health authorities to them. Is the Minister aware that in Dyfed Powys, which faces cuts of £7 million, all six chief executives have refused to sign the contract offered by Dyfed Powys health authority because they say that they cannot deliver the services for the price that is being offered? Unless the Welsh Office gives additional finance to Dyfed Powys health authority, especially in respect of writing off the debts of the predecessor Dyfed and Powys health authorities, there will be significant cuts in hospitals and community services throughout the area. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, as has happened in England in similar situations, health authority debts incurred in previous years should be written off?
Mr. Jones: Contracts between national health service trusts and any health authority, including Dyfed Powys, must be a matter for the two parties to the contracts. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the news that I have agreed a loan of £1.7 million to Dyfed Powys health authority which, it is expected, will enable it to achieve a balanced position by the year 1999-2000.
Dr. Spink: When my hon. Friend meets the chief executives and chairmen of NHS trusts, will he explain the positive benefits that market testing has brought to the financing of the health service in Wales in delivering real resources for patient care and that, if the Government were to follow the policies advocated by the Labour party, that money would be denied to the health service in Wales?
Mr. Jones: My hon. Friend is right. Market testing has enabled savings to be made which, in the case of the health service, have been passed on to the bedside for the benefit of the patients. My hon. Friend is right to point to the Labour party's dogma, not least the stricture from the shadow Chancellor that there will be no new spending unless it is financed from existing moneys. Where will the cuts be made for the sacred cows?
Mr. Dafis: Does the Minister recognise that, if the cuts agreed to be necessary to deal with the present deficiency of money in Dyfed Powys materialise, there will be a furore in the area, especially in respect of the reduction, and possible closure, of community hospitals? Lack of revenue and the capital charging system are imposing serious strains on smaller district general hospitals such as Bronglais, which will not be able to keep up with capital development or replacement of equipment, much less with the introduction of new technology. Is the Minister aware that there are serious fears that we are into a spiral of decline in Bronglais which could lead to its being
downgraded from its status as a district general hospital? What does he intend to do about that and how can we prevent that scenario from materialising?
Mr. Jones: No, I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's hypothesis. The concept of capital charges has no bearing on the size of the hospital. The hon. Gentleman is being irresponsible in prophesying, no doubt for electoral purposes, some decline in Bronglais hospital. I should prefer that he look at the reality, such as the dramatic improvement in the out-patients waiting list across the Dyfed Powys area. That is what he ought to concentrate on.
Mr. Morgan: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Secretary of State has been abjectly humiliated by the refusal of Gwent Community Health NHS trust and Gwent health authority to publish the report on Julie Sharma and the £35,000 redundancy payment that she received, even though the Secretary of State put on the working party his own independent observer, Professor Dimond, one of the leading experts in Britain on NHS law? Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the working party has been a complete shambles, in spite of his observer? What does the hon. Gentleman intend to do to ensure that the report is soon published in full and is available to all of us?
Mr. Jones: The hon. Gentleman starts off with the usual nonsense. Nothing of the kind has happened. Gwent health authority is pursuing the matter as strongly as possible. I am confident that it wants to ensure that a full, accurate account is available for all. I understand that it has set a deadline of 3 September to publish the report.
Governance
5. Mr. Hain: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make it his policy to hold a referendum on the structure of government of Wales. [35550]
Mr. Hague: No. I believe that the interests of Wales are best served by the direct representation provided in Westminster by hon. Members in the House and the Secretary of State in the United Kingdom Cabinet.
Mr. Hain: If the Secretary of State is so confident that the people of Wales back his unelected Tory quango state, why does he not offer them a referendum on replacing it with a Welsh Assembly? Or is he frightened--not so much frit as ofni?
Mr. Hague: The hon. Gentleman forgets several things. The last referendum rejected the idea of an assembly by 4:1 and only 12 per cent. of the Welsh electorate turned out to vote in it. It is incumbent on those who wish to change long-standing arrangements to demonstrate popular support for change. I have no plans for a referendum, because I have no plans to do violence to the constitution.
Mr. Sweeney: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Welsh branch of the Institute of Directors recently conducted a survey of businesses in Wales and found that more than 70 per cent. were against a Welsh Assembly? Does that not show how disastrous a Welsh Assembly would be for business in Wales?
Mr. Hague: Yes. My hon. Friend draws attention to an important point. Nothing could do more damage to business confidence than the sight of an extra tier of government and an extra roomful of politicians consuming a great deal of time, money and space for no good purpose whatever. Wales is now forging ahead without the arrangements proposed by the Labour party.
Mr. Alan W. Williams: In the past couple of years, Conservative Members have regularly asked the Labour party to include a referendum in its policy, so does the Secretary of State welcome the decision to hold a referendum? Does he acknowledge that, once we have had a referendum and have achieved a yes vote by a 2:1 majority, which I anticipate, it will be much easier for an incoming Labour Government to implement the legislation, and more difficult for the Conservative party to reverse it at any future stage?
Mr. Hague: The hon. Gentleman must not presume the outcome of any referendum. I seem to remember a number of people presuming the outcome in the 1970s and, indeed, presuming the outcome of general elections.
I welcome the conversion of the Labour party to the idea of a referendum. I have asked Opposition Members about this on many occasions. The mistake that they have made now is to advocate a pre-legislation referendum which keeps the public in the dark about the final details, instead of submitting the final details to the electorate. That is an unsatisfactory option, for reasons well set out by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies) only 48 hours before he was forced to adopt it as his policy.
Sir Irvine Patnick:
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Opposition's policy for a Welsh Assembly would spell economic ruin for Wales?
Mr. Hague:
It would do no favours for the Welsh economy and my hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the dangers. An extra tier of government, with buck passing between different levels of government and division between different parts of government, is no way to encourage business or to improve business confidence.
7. Mr. Rogers:
To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will increase the money available for local government in the next financial year. [35552]
Mr. Hague:
I will make my decisions on provision for local authorities in the forthcoming public expenditure round and will consult local government in the usual way.
Mr. Rogers:
The Secretary of State will be aware of the impact that the last settlement had on local authority provision in Wales. My hon. Friends the Members for Pontypridd (Dr. Howells) and for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) and I were appalled by the decision that Rhondda, Cynon, Taff was forced to make to close residential care homes in the area. That has struck at the most vulnerable in our society in one of the poorest areas in Great Britain. In the next settlement, will the Secretary of State make some special provision for social services?
Mr. Hague:
Local government was given a fair settlement last year, but it is important for local government to be as efficient as possible in using its resources. The hon. Gentleman and I have often discussed the position of Rhondda, Cynon, Taff, and he knows that it received an additional £10 million in council tax reduction grant, on top of the normal settlement, following the discussions that we had last year. When I consider next year's settlement, I will, of course, take into account all the pressures on local authorities as well as the resources available. I have no doubt that Rhondda, Cynon, Taff will be involved in those discussions.
Sir Sydney Chapman:
Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the level of Government support for local authority expenditure in Wales is now more than £850 a person? Is he aware that that is 18 per cent. more than the sum allocated to English local authorities? As an Englishman, I have no objection to that, because the figure should be based on needs and council tax revenue, but does my right hon. Friend agree that the people of Wales, the local authorities and the council tax payers in the Principality get a good deal?
Mr. Hague:
My hon. Friend makes a pertinent point. The level of Government support for local government spending is £132 higher a head in Wales than in England and council tax levels are substantially lower in Wales than in England. The people of Wales get a good deal from the existing arrangements.
Mr. Rowlands:
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, as a result of budget cuts, nursery and infant schools in the Rhymney valley will be closed or merged? We will have to build portakabins on the precious playing space of neighbouring schools to accommodate the children. Is that any way to enter the millennium, with our youngest children being educated in portakabins on playing spaces in schools in our community?
Mr. Hague:
The hon. Gentleman knows that we are making great investments in education and that the private finance initiative will allow us to do more. I protected capital spending by local government on education in the last public spending round. The hon. Gentleman and his colleagues should remember that local government must use its resources as efficiently as possible and, before asking for more money, it should be sure that every penny it spends is well spent.
Sir Raymond Powell:
Did the Secretary of State take into consideration the concerns of councillors in the new unitary authorities that have taken over the responsibilities of counties, boroughs and districts, before he assessed them this year? The councillors were worried about cuts in services to the people they serve. I hope that, when the Secretary of State meets the officers of Bridgend county borough council, he will consider increasing the amount of money that they get next year to spend on essential services, so that they will not have to worry, as they are this year, about cuts.
Mr. Hague:
I certainly considered the task that local authorities faced during the reorganisation of local government this year. That is why we are giving them more than £40 million this year to finance the transitional
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