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Mr. Alton: We have heard the Minister of State again advance the argument that their lordships' amendments are defective, but, if the principles behind them were accepted, there has been a chance to put them right since they were passed in the other place. That is why I question precisely where the Government are coming from on some of the issues. They have had the chance to put right defective amendments and they have failed to do so. If Lords amendment No. 9 were accepted in its present form, even though it be defective, the Government could put it right between now and when it goes back to the House of Lords in a couple of weeks.
In a letter to the Home Secretary supporting the amendment, Kalayaan, otherwise known as Justice for Overseas Domestic Workers, said:
Lord Hylton gave a particular example of a Nigerian who was
The Government will say that they deplore these practices--they have done so again today--yet they do not conduct spot checks to find out what is happening to people, once they have arrived in the UK and become domestic workers. The Government propose no new penalties. They retain a concession that allows 12,000 bonded workers into the country every year and shackles them to their employers. Those workers have no more rights than mediaeval serfs. In a country that remembers the Tolpuddle martyrs and the early battles over trade union and labour laws, and that argues to this day about the social chapter and its protection for workers, it is mildly incongruous that we should be settling for anything less than the protection that any other worker receives in this country, merely because the workers in this case are foreign.
I would rather the so-called concessions were abolished, than keep in place a concession that allows people to abuse, to exploit and to curtail freedom to seek alternative employment. Even by the Government's own misguided lights, this is a denial of free-market forces and instead permits a small group of people to live in shadowy homes, where upstairs-downstairs attitudes hold sway. The Government should urgently examine the Dutch and Canadian systems of protecting domestic workers. They should give Lord Hylton the interdepartmental committee that he has requested. They should have an amnesty for overstaying domestic staff, who inhabit an even darker zone of the unprotected nether regions. They should permit workers who wish to bring civil or criminal cases against employers to stay here and to work until their cases are over.
Even without accepting the amendment, the Government could provide greatly improved protection against abuse and exploitation by noting on arrival the
address to which employers intend to take domestic workers and by carrying out spot checks to ensure that the terms of the contract of employment are observed. Perhaps on arrival workers could be given the telephone number of a 24-hour helpline that would offer advice or help. To date, the Government have promised nothing to replace Lord Hylton's amendment. We should not put up with that negativity and indifference. Before the House decides, I hope that we shall hear from Ministers about what they propose to do to protect this group of people.
Sir Patrick Cormack:
I am a member of the executive committee of Anti-Slavery International. There is real concern on this issue. I accept that there may be imperfections in Lord Hylton's amendment and logic in the Minister's recommendation to reject it, but we must have some measure. If we cannot have an interdepartmental committee immediately, we should at least have the promise of interdepartmental talks and a promise about the drawing up of clear guidance notes for those who have to deal with people, most of whom are women, who are often subjected to appalling brutality.
As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Mossley Hill (Mr. Alton) said, Lord Hylton has campaigned on this issue for many years from the Cross Benches. This should be entirely a Cross-Bench issue and we should all be concerned about having in our country people who are working under the control of what amounts to an alien regime. We would not for a moment condone certain practices for our own workers. As I have said, there must be interdepartmental discussions on this matter, the possibility of a committee of the type for which Lord Hylton has been campaigning, and the drawing up of clear guidance for all those who deal with these people. In asking us to reject the amendment, the Minister should at least give us those assurances.
Ms Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Highgate):
I agree with everything that has been said by Opposition Members and by the hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir P. Cormack). As he said, there is cross-party agreement, except by the Government, on this issue and certainly on the case in my constituency that was brought to my attention. The Government are labouring under a delusion if they regard the people whom we are discussing as employees. Those inevitably rich families who bring bonded servants into the country do not regard them as employees or in many instances even as human. In a case that was brought to my attention, the person was an abused slave.
The Government's argument that the embassies of the nationals concerned offer some protection does not stand. Many employers of those bonded servants are families of great importance and wealth in their own countries and have close associations with embassy officials. In my experience, the embassies invariably take the side of the employer and not that of the bonded servant. If the Government will not listen to Opposition arguments, I hope that they will listen to those by Conservative Members.
Miss Widdecombe:
I am afraid that I must maintain my resistance to the amendments. However, that does not mean that I underestimate the importance of their intentions. I have said that we are always interested in hearing about additional ways to improve our system so
I assure my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir P. Cormack) that I shall carefully consider his suggestions and those of other hon. Members. I pay tribute to Lord Hylton. He has been to see me and has always been persistent but reasonable on the issue. I assure the House that I am willing to explore further ways forward. The amendments are not the answer.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney, North and Stoke Newington):
Twice in this short debate, the Minister has said that she does not want to create a special situation for these people. We are arguing that they are already in a special situation because, unlike people in any other category of immigrant or asylum seeker, they are not acting under their free will. That is why we are calling for a different special situation.
Miss Widdecombe:
If people have not come here voluntarily, are not satisfied with the terms and conditions of their employment and are likely to be exploited, those are clear signs that we have to provide even tighter and surer entry clearance procedures. I have said that I am willing to listen to suggestions on that rather than go down the suggested route.
Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West):
Will the Minister give way?
Miss Widdecombe:
I shall do so for the last time.
Mr. Banks:
The Minister has said that people who are abused, and she gave examples, should have the full protection of the law. What about the proposal that more should be done to inspect the conditions under which they are employed, if employed is an accurate description? After all, the Minister is more than happy to send in the forces to check on illegal immigrants who are working in factories and elsewhere. Why not go into some of those homes to find out what is going on? If that is not done, we cannot take her assurances.
"If retained the amendment will provide fleeing domestic workers of whom we have interviewed over 1000 since 1992, to consider their position, and it will help to give them time to prepare litigation against their former abusing employers."
The letter goes on:
"Instead of further entrapping her by placing secondary employers under the threat of prosecution, the Government should be seeking urgently to solve the scandal of what Anti-Slavery International has described as modern day slavery."
The amendment has a long history. Much to his credit, my noble Friend Lord Hylton, the Cross-Bench peer, has campaigned for many years on the issue. The background is that, in 1981, the Government allowed rich employers coming to the UK to bring their domestic workers, who, tied to one employer, risked deportation if they left that employ. That led to innumerable injustices and to hundreds of instances of exploitation.
"brought here direct by Nigerian employers in January 1991. She escaped from them in December 1995. During all that time she received no salary, was continually slapped and beaten by the employers and locked in their house."--[Official Report, House of Lords, 1 July 1996; Vol. 573, c. 1284-85.]
He gave many other examples. During that debate, he called for an interdepartmental committee. He has been campaigning for 15 years, highlighting cases such as that of Mrs. Swami and the Kuwaiti princesses, which Members will recall.
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