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Mrs. Anne Campbell (Cambridge): The publication of the report sounds like good news. But can the Minister tell me whether it is considered that basic research done in the research council institutes and the public sector research establishments is considered to be as valuable as that done in universities and other academic institutes?
Mr. Taylor: Excellent research that is done anywhere is of great value. I might have added to my list the industrial research laboratories. The vice-chancellor designate of Cambridge--the hon. Lady's home town--has said that some of the greatest ideas come out of industrial research laboratories.
I am talking about excellence in research. As for Government responsibility, I need to ensure that it is clear what the research laboratories' missions are. Although there has been much talk of mission drift in those establishments, an equal danger is mission stagnation. The prior options reviews that we are conducting there are designed to ensure that we get continued excellence in research from those organisations. We have already debated the matter in the House.
As the subject has been raised, I note at this point the Select Committee's report, which was issued yesterday. My hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Sir G. Shaw) made some trenchant contributions to the exchange of letters that was published yesterday, but, as I said in a debate not long ago, I remain of the view that if research is to be excellent, it can be equally excellent whether it takes place in the private or the public sector.
There is no point in trying to freeze the relationship or the mission statements in any way, because we need constantly to react to changing circumstances and to the market as a whole. I spend one fifth of our money through the research establishments and I have to ensure that that money is wisely spent.
Mr. Adam Ingram (East Kilbride):
The Minister described the letters of his hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Sir G. Shaw), which were published yesterday, as "trenchant". Would it not be more accurate if he recorded the fact that the conclusion of the report that he has mentioned says:
Mr. Taylor:
I do not deny that those establishments are an important base. Indeed, I have already said that they were. I am saying that they can be an important research base with the new freedoms provided by a period
As for the Select Committee's comments, now that they have been published, I can study them, and I shall respond in due course. None the less, my views are on the record, and they are clear. I believe that my objective and that of the Select Committee is the same--to improve the quality of research in this country. Where we differ is perhaps in the belief that the delivery mechanisms need to be assessed, to establish whether they are delivering proper science.
Mr. Ingram:
I appreciate that we must make progress in the debate, and that the Government will respond to what has been said about the public sector research establishments in due course. But it is even more important that we should have another debate on the subject. The previous debate took place on an Opposition motion, and it would be much more appropriate to consider the report that was published yesterday in the same way as we intend to consider the report on human genetics. Can the Minister give me an assurance about that? The Government have a thin legislative programme, and there will be plenty of time to debate such matters.
Mr. Taylor:
I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman realises that we have plenty of time--right through until next May; there is no difficulty about that. I am glad that there is agreement across the Floor of the House about the likely date of the election. No doubt we shall return to such matters, because they are so important, but I shall not pre-empt the usual channels as to the appropriate forum.
We are all aware that the first tranche has already been announced, with further reviews of some elements, and that the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food made some announcements yesterday. We expect to receive the second tranche report imminently, and further reports will be made later in the year. The process is on-going, and I am sure that the debate will move ahead in the same fashion.
The questions that I hear most often in universities relate to infrastructure, and I am aware of the animated debate on the state of universities--not least equipment. I have attempted to address that matter, and hon. Members will appreciate the work of research councils which, with the higher education funding councils, have taken the initiative in tackling the immediate problems caused by the reduction in the equipment budget.
The joint equipment initiative has been a great success. We have put aside £18 million for allocation, and I am pleased to announce that that has been heavily oversubscribed. Some 250 applications have been received for some £40 million, and that has been matched by funds from industry and other external sponsors. That tells us a variety of things, and we shall now analyse the situation and use technology foresight to make judgments.
I agree that one cannot carry out good research without good equipment, and the question is how we provide that equipment. Opposition Members will not immediately fall into the trap of saying that we should spend more money, because the shadow Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Dunfermline, East (Mr. Brown), has said that that is not an option. Therefore, we must look together for ways in which we can find money for equipment more effectively.
There is too little discussion among universities of their equipment needs, too little understanding of whether equipment can be shared or phased and too little discussion about centres of excellence. Even the recent policy research in engineering, science and technology report had some worrying signs, and some of the figures were contradictory. For example, although many departments were worried about equipment, the survey showed that more than half believed their equipment to be on a par or better than the international average, while 80 per cent. of existing equipment was judged adequate or better. The report received responses from 91 universities, but I do not regard those 91 as research universities, so it is inevitable that the figures will be skewed.
The debate is about excellence, and we shall return to it as the Dearing committee continues its inquiries. There is no point in attempting to pretend that every university needs to reach a level of excellence in research. In my judgment, some universities' concepts of research excellence are up to international standards. Some universities will be more geared to development, and there are others that need to concentrate most on scholastic excellence.
In the circumstances, we can perhaps avoid spreading too thinly the amount of money that we have for research, but I do not want to stray into the territory of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Employment. I am speaking merely as the Science Minister, and I am concerned about excellence in research projects.
Mrs. Jacqui Lait (Hastings and Rye):
Is my hon. Friend aware of a letter from the chairman of the Engineering Professors Council, Professor John Spence--from my own university, Strathclyde--which states:
Mr. Taylor:
I am not surprised by that, as I have heard many apocryphal stories on similar lines. The point that my hon. Friend helps to underline is that, while there is a need for research equipment, we must not fall into the trap of assuming that the only way in which we can tackle that need is by increased funding. I want to look closely at ways of making sure that money is going to the right departments. If money is supposed to be going to grade 5 departments--the top rank in research assessment--I hope that it goes to them and not elsewhere.
Mr. Robert G. Hughes (Harrow, West):
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is important that a university spends the available money in the right way? Does he further agree that discussions about the lack of funding for research equipment are made less impressive when they are conducted with the vice-chancellor, having visited his private bathroom with gold taps?
Mr. Taylor:
There are a range of possibilities for expenditure on equipment, although I cannot comment on that individual example. Although most universities are dedicated to ensuring that their researchers get the
There is much to cover in the debate, but I want colleagues to know that I am aware of their concerns. I want a much deeper understanding of where we are going and how we should look at universities, as we now have such a large number of them. We should examine their missions and see how we can get the best from the research budgets.
During the past year, I have been keen to bring forward and develop the debate on technology foresight. The foresight programme has achieved a great deal since it began two years ago, and we have no intention of letting it lose momentum. The 15 foresight panel reports have been bestsellers, and more than 10,000 people have been involved in consultation and networking. We have taken the concept into industries such as finance, retailing and leisure.
Over 300 foresight events have been held in the past 12 months, leading to widespread dissemination of the findings. The foresight findings have already led to important new initiatives from the public sector. I have already mentioned the research equipment initiative, and there are new link programmes worth £110 million that are being carried out jointly with industry. The Department for Education and Employment has a skills and training initiative, and the Royal Academy of Engineering has foresight awards. The information society initiative and the crusade for biotechnology, which I mentioned, also play a part in the developing foresight campaign.
We successfully launched a foresight challenge competition, which engaged business in collaborative research and development well beyond original expectations. There are now 24 projects worth £92 million, two thirds of which has come from the private sector--a remarkable success story. Many of the collaborative projects have been between companies that have not previously engaged in the foresight programme.
Altogether, some £1 billion from the public and private sectors is now directed at foresight priority areas--£300 million in new initiatives since the reports were published and £700 million within existing research council programmes. Awareness of foresight in industry is growing. A Confederation of British Industry survey showed that 48 per cent. of respondents from manufacturing firms were aware of or were involved in the programme.
"We consider that the Department's policy on this matter is far from satisfactory"?
That is more than trenchant; it is condemnatory of the Government's whole approach to the public sector research establishments, which are an important ingredient of our research base.
"It is true that in most universities 'the scientific equipment . . . budget has often been eroded by more and more of it being used for furnishings/minor works, rather than equipment'"?
Do we not also have to take into account the results of a turf fight between those who want more chairs and those who want engineering equipment?
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