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2.12 pm
Mr. Ian Taylor: I am grateful for the opportunity to return to the Dispatch Box to sum up this excellent debate. First, it is my pleasant duty to congratulate the hon. Member for Liverpool, Broadgreen (Mrs. Kennedy), who made her debut at the Dispatch Box with great skill, calmness and precision. For her sake, I hope that the shadow Cabinet list is still open because, in my judgment, she would make a fine candidate--although I do not wish to intervene in the internal affairs of the Labour party.
As the hon. Member for Broadgreen arrives at the Dispatch Box, we regret the departure of the hon. Member for Motherwell, South (Dr. Bray), who has contributed to many debates such as this over the years. We have occasionally had a chance to chat in the Lobby, and I have always found his words interesting. We have not necessarily always agreed, and I was astonished to learn that the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mrs. Campbell) also has not always agreed with him. These are the sort of revelations that one gets in these debates, and that is one of the most exciting things of all.
Having listened carefully to the speech of the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Williams), I will now eat fish with greater respect than I did previously. Fish is clearly not a junk food, according to its DNA structure. There is a great deal of talent on the Opposition Back Benches, and I had not realised the hon. Gentleman's background in chemistry and environmental sciences. I enjoyed a rather jolly party with the Royal Society of Chemistry this week, and it is clear that chemists relish their role in pulling together all sorts of disciplines to make sure that we are able to understand some of the great breakthroughs. That is putting a strain on university departments. The vertical segregation of disciplines is breaking down, particularly in science, into new arrangements. The Cruciform project of University college, London is an interesting example and there are many others.
The hon. Member for Carmarthen made an important point that no one else mentioned. I tried to raise it in my evidence to the Committee. There are benefits in knowing one's own genetic structure. If one knows that one is likely to suffer from a disease, one can alter one's life style and possibly mitigate the effects or postpone the disease. There are many aspects of science that we must consider, but that is a beneficial impact.
I was impressed by the speech of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Dr. Jones), which contained many thoughtful points, not least her encouragement of the Treasury. Of course, I cannot comment on anything connected with the Budget, which is not yet decided upon, but I hope that the Treasury reads the text of Hansard and her speech in particular before we finalise the public expenditure survey round.
We are not the only country facing pressures on the science budget and, indeed, on all budgets. Japan is the honourable exception. There are good, domestic economic reasons why Japan is looking for ways to spend more money, not least connected with the position of the yen. Nevertheless, when I talked to the Japanese on a recent visit--their scientific adviser has been to this country twice recently--it was clear that they are beginning to spend a considerable amount of money, but they are coming here to learn how to spend it. The structure of science is extremely strong in this country. The flexibility in the way in which our institutions, research establishments and universities work has greatly intrigued the Japanese and we are watching that situation closely.
All the other G7 countries face budgetary constraints. Consider the difference in Germany, where the largesse of recent years has turned into a need to constrain. The Germans are talking to us about ways in which we may co-operate. As I will not have time to return to that matter, I must immediately pick up on the comments of the hon. Member for Motherwell, South about CERN. There is no doubt that we and the Germans have a common interest in ensuring that the CERN position is rectified. We cannot carry on as we are. It is absurd for us to have budgets that mean that we are effectively funding others to do research because we do not have enough left in our own budgets to carry out our national programmes, or to get involved nationally in some of the work at the large hadron collider. We should, therefore, take the opportunity presented to us because other countries are now becoming concerned about budgets and work closely with the Germans on that.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Hughes) was involved with the earlier discussions when he was briefly the Minister responsible for science. He understands the pressures and I noted carefully what he had to say.
Not surprisingly, a considerable amount of the discussion has focused on genetics. My opening remarks could be much broader because many documents are tagged for the debate, not least the forward look, which gives us an opportunity to discuss all elements of science. Now I shall concentrate on the issues raised in the debate.
First, it is understandable that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Mossley Hill (Mr. Alton) mentioned the ethical questions. I am not going to differ with him about the importance of ethics in this debate. We might well differ on how we segregate aspects of decision making from it. He mentioned xenotransplantation, which is the use of organs and tissues from genetically modified animals for the treatment of humans and which is causing great concern. There are ethical questions about that.
The advisory group has been set up to advise the Secretary of State for Health on that issue. The group is led by Professor Ian Kennedy, who is professor of medical ethics at King's college, London, and its terms of reference are that
The hon. Gentleman raised other matters, including the discussion on novel foods in the European Union and, in particular, genetically modified foods. The Advisory Committee on Novel Foods and Processes, which advises the Ministers with responsibility for health and agriculture on safety, is active. No genetically modified food has been marketed in this country without the committee's clearance. I do not have time to go into it now, but I accept his genuine concern, although we might differ on certain aspects of how we bring ethics into the debate.
I wish to be emphatic on one matter, and I am glad that I share the views of the hon. Member for East Kilbride (Mr. Ingram) in saying this. By and large, the transformation of our horizons by the scientific developments that have come out of the genetic sequencing process, the human genome project and genetic analysis of many aspects of substances such as yeast, will benefit humankind. Because of that, we must recognise the hon. Member for Mossley Hill's ethical concerns and reconcile them as best we can. We must not, however, stop the progress with scientists who are minded to try to improve the quality of human life.
The hon. Members for East Kilbride and for Broadgreen rightly pressed me on specific points arising out of the Select Committee's genetics study. With the advisory commission, we will have to consider whether recommendations should turn into legislation. I will not pre-empt that. It will depend on what it recommends.
I would want to talk to the chairman, when he is appointed, about the terms of the publication of the commission's reports. We said up front that this should be transparent. If the process is to give the public greater confidence in what is happening, my instinct is to go in that direction, but, again, I should like to take up that matter with the chairman.
The hon. Member for East Kilbride mentioned the Genetics Interest Group. We watch its work closely and we understand and listen to its advice. At the end, we have to take it into consideration, but we have taken careful note of the work on care in old age, for example, and we will continue to do so.
Advisory commission members will be chosen on their merits. That is, in effect, set out in our response to the Select Committee. They will, however, represent between them informed opinion on developments in the science of human genetics, as well as social health, ethical and economic implications. The purpose is to take a broad perspective. I have listened to the comments of hon. Members about the balance between lay members and professionals. We have already said that we understand the reasons for that and we will go as far as we can to accommodate them and move as quickly as possible to ensure that the commission is appointed.
In view of its strategic role, the advisory commission will interest a number of Departments. I was pushed to clarify this point. Primarily, it will interest the Department of Health and the Department of Trade and Industry, my own Department. Therefore, we have determined that the commission will report formally and jointly to Health and industry Ministers and that there will be a joint secretariat. Ministers' job will be to ensure that both Departments work closely together, but the secretariat will be based in the Office of Science and Technology and the secretary will be an OST official.
I would not presume to take primary responsibility over the Department of Health because, as these things develop, clearly, mutual interests will be involved and it will depend to some extent on the issue we are discussing, but there is no doubt that my Department--which includes the chief scientific adviser--has, through the President of the Board of Trade, a transdepartmental interest. We will ensure that we carry out that responsibility.
Hon. Members on both sides of the House have mentioned the importance of testing. I understand the concerns, which were discussed during my opening speech. Several comments have been made on insurance. I share the concerns of the hon. Member for Selly Oak about certain aspects of what could occur in employment and interviews in terms of genetic testing. Mention has been made during the debate in the context of insurance of Professor Peter Harper of the college of medicine at the university of Wales in Cardiff, who is a specialist in clinical genetics. I can confirm what colleagues know--that he is a member of the Advisory Committee on Genetic Testing. It is intriguing that the committee had its first meeting this morning. We shall await the outcome of that. It is difficult for the moment to see how widely it will decide to go at the early stage, but having set the committee up as a result of the recommendations of the Select Committee, I am delighted that it has had its first meeting.
I confirm to the House that I hope that now that we have agreed that the Human Genetics Advisory Commission will be created, it will be set up and working as quickly as possible. I cannot stress enough how important it is to reassure the public. I am profoundly supportive of the moves to increase the range of knowledge of genetics, but I realise that it raises considerable anxieties.
The question of patents has been raised by several hon. Members. The directive that is being discussed in the European Union is welcome, but I hope that the European Parliament will not tinker with it too much. I am not instinctively opposed to that institution, but sometimes Members of the European Parliament seem to lack responsibility in the way in which they consider such matters. I urge them to realise that biotechnology is an industry which is extremely sensitive to false moves in terms of regulation.
There is a long gestation period between original research and potential availability of products. If companies feel that they live in a hostile regulatory environment, it is possible for the capital behind the research and the research to move offshore from Europe. That has already occurred in Germany. Some of the German Lander are so worried about the matter that they are offering vast sums of money to maintain research in their universities. However, money itself--this is an interesting point for Opposition Members--is not sufficient if the risk calculation of regulation means that the company or the people involved in the research do not see how they will ever be able to move sufficiently far and fast in a stable climate.
The exemptions in United Kingdom law for research and compulsory licensing, which help to ensure that patents do not stifle legitimate research, are not affected by the draft directive.
The present legal requirements for novelty, inventive step and industrial applicability make it unlikely that patents will be gained for genes of unknown function--an anxiety that was raised. Patents can be refused on the
ground of morality, but that can be justified only in clear cases and, in my judgment, the directive is not a place for discussion of moral issues. That is not to say that moral issues do not impinge, but if we try to achieve a directive that embraces moral issues, it will be a pretty rum piece of law to enforce. Therefore, we must try to segregate morality from other issues without discounting its importance.
I was pleased to see that George Poste, whom I mentioned earlier and who has been mentioned by others, stated that the biotechnology patenting directive was to be welcomed. In the Financial Times this morning, he said:
Human genetic research has been mentioned by several colleagues. I particularly listened to my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Sir G. Shaw), who made an important speech and said in a letter to the Financial Times recently that the United Kingdom would have the most sophisticated system in the world for considering issues raised by genetics. I agree with that.
There have been one or two interestingly waspish comments to the effect that the Government came to that view rather late in the day. I accept that Governments need to think through such matters carefully. I have thought them through carefully, as has my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health. We were much taken by the fact that the Committee rethought through some aspects of the subject and decided that an advisory commission, rather than a statutory body, was the right way forward. There was a tremendous meeting of minds and we have come up with the present framework. Given the committees that have not been mentioned today--such as the Interdepartmental Group on Genetic Modification Technology--as the Chairman of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey, said, it is the best system available.
"in the light of recent and potential developments in xenotransplantation, to review the acceptability of an ethical framework within which xenotransplantation may be undertaken and to make recommendations."
That is to the Secretary of State for Health.
"Without patents there will be no cures. I welcome the re-affirmation of the importance of this issue at the Florence summit at which the Council of Ministers was asked to expedite adoption of the legal framework for biotechnological inventions."
I heartily endorse that. We must give clear signals to industry if we are to get the best advances that we can.
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