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4.19 pm

Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West): I do not support the Bill, but I like the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Fabricant)--how could anyone dislike him? It is not the Labour party that is a threat to the hon. Gentleman's Bill, if he gets permission for it, but time and sanity. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on becoming a Parliamentary Private Secretary, which is a humble but worthy job. It is the first greasy mark on the political pole, and we would all agree that few have greased more assiduously, or carried a ministerial lunch box with more colour and verve, than the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire.

There is a certain guile about the hon. Gentleman that neutralises his propensity to kiss the bottom of any passing figure of authority. He is visibly bursting with pride at becoming a ministerial gofer, which makes me rather sad. I do not see a Minister manque sitting opposite but a poor, wretched youth congratulating himself on getting the last cabin boy's job on the Titanic.

For all the qualities of the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire--and we all like him--his proposal is silly, as one would expect from its originator. It is silly in concept and timing. After all, the hon. Gentleman only has the overspill of a few days in October to present his Bill, if he gets permission. The chances of the Bill ever getting to the statute book are about as good as my chances of entering the kingdom of heaven.

Mr. Foulkes: Or the shadow Cabinet.

Mr. Banks: Yes, or the shadow Cabinet--which I have been assured by the Leader of the Opposition is one and the same place. If it is the same place, I have a good idea what God looks like.

The suggestion to fly more flags comes straight out of Evelyn Waugh, and so does the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire. Wrapping the Union flag around bankrupt policies or unfavourable Government opinion polls is typical of the Conservative party. It does that all the time, to cover its bankruptcy. Every time Opposition Members criticise the Government about their economic

24 Jul 1996 : Column 363

performance, or whatever, they say that we are being unpatriotic and talking Britain down. The Government are running Britain down, when all we are doing is telling the truth.

The hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire mentioned the great Samuel Johnson. Apart from Lichfield, I can think of one other similarity between Dr. Johnson and the hon. Gentleman, but kindness prevents me from saying precisely what it is.

Waving more flags is a pathetic response, but one expects that from a pathetic Government. It is obscene to use the flag as a way of suggesting that criticism of a policy or Government is tantamount to treason, and divides the country rather than unites it. The hon. Member said that the Union flag should be flown over Government construction projects. I would like him to name a few. There are plenty of flags flying over British manufacturing industry. Unfortunately, they tend to be the national flags of Japan, Taiwan, South Korea and Germany.

The hon. Gentleman is also using his Bill as a way of getting at devolution. There is much talk in the House about subsidiarity. Devolution is subsidiarity--national subsidiarity. A flag should be a symbol of national unity, not used to paper over injustices and divisions that should be addressed. I often visit the United States, and it is true that one sees that country's flag everywhere. America is more united in that respect, because so many powers have been devolved to individual states, which also have their own flags.

The hon. Gentleman's Bill is a silly proposal, but at least Mr. Simon Hoggart now has some more cheap copy for tomorrow, in his love-hate relationship with the hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire.

Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 19 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and nomination of Select Committees at commencement of public business), and negatived.

DELEGATED LEGISLATION

Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(6) (Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation),

Social Security


Question agreed to.

EUROPEAN COMMUNITY DOCUMENTS

Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 102(9) (European Standing Committees),

Wild Animals: Trapping Methods


Question agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

24 Jul 1996 : Column 364

Fisheries


Amendment proposed: at the end of the Question, to add--


    'and calls on Her Majesty's Government to recognise and draw to the attention of other Member States of the European Community that the genesis and evolution of the current Common Fisheries Policy is flawed by past misrepresentation, coercion by qualified majority vote, inequity between Member States, and impracticality in operation, and is thus incapable of achieving the objectives of conservation of fisheries and the marine environment that can yield sustainable catches and consequent stability of income and employment in fishing communities; and thus believes that these objectives can only be achieved by a new policy created and sustained by mutual agreement between those Member States possessing internationally recognised fishery interests working in co-operation to achieve these universally desirable ends.'.--[Mr. Spearing.]

Question, That the amendment be made, put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 102 (European Standing Committees):--

The House divided: Ayes 33, Noes 164.

Division No. 211
[4.27 pm


AYES


Banks, Tony (Newham NW)
Beith, A J
Bennett, Andrew F
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Chidgey, David
Cohen, Harry
Dalyell, Tam
Davies, Chris (Littleborough)
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Don (Bath)
Gill, Christopher
Hardy, Peter
Hawksley, Warren
Kirkwood, Archy
Lynne, Ms Liz
Mackinlay, Andrew
Madden, Max
Maddock, Mrs Diana
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Molyneaux, Sir James
Porter, David (Waveney)
Rendel, David
Salmond, Alex
Skinner, Dennis
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Spearing, Nigel
Steel, Sir David
Taylor, John D (Strangf'd)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Wigley, Dafydd

Tellers for the Ayes:


Mr. Harry Barnes and
Dr. Norman A. Godman.


NOES


Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Alison, Michael (Selby)
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashby, David
Atkins, Robert
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Bates, Michael
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bowis, John
Boyson, Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Burns, Simon
Butler, Peter
Carrington, Matthew
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Clappison, James
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Sir John
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Couchman, James
Devlin, Tim
Dicks, Terry
Dorrell, Stephen
Dover, Den
Dunn, Bob
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Tim
Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Fishburn, Dudley
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Fowler, Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
French, Douglas
Gallie, Phil
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodlad, Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Gummer, John
Hanley, Jeremy
Hannam, Sir John
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Heathcoat-Amory, David
Higgins, Sir Terence
Hogg, Douglas (Grantham)
Horam, John
Hordern, Sir Peter
Howard, Michael
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, David (Wirral W)
Hunter, Andrew
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)
Jessel, Toby
King, Tom
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lang, Ian
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lidington, David
Lilley, Peter
Lloyd, Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, John
MacKay, Andrew
McLoughlin, Patrick
Madel, Sir David
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Merchant, Piers
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Norris, Steve
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Pawsey, James
Pickles, Eric
Rathbone, Tim
Rifkind, Malcolm
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rowe, Andrew
Scott, Sir Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shephard, Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Sims, Sir Roger
Speed, Sir Keith
Spencer, Sir Derek
Sproat, Iain
Stanley, Sir John
Stephen, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sumberg, David
Sweeney, Walter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Tracey, Richard
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Waldegrave, William
Walden, George
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Wells, Bowen
Whitney, Ray
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Miss Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesf'ld)
Wolfson, Mark
Young, Sir George

Tellers for the Noes:


Mr. Timothy Wood and
Mr. Richard Ottaway.

Question accordingly negatived.

24 Jul 1996 : Column 366

Main Question put and agreed to.

24 Jul 1996 : Column 367


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