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British Aerospace has had my consistent support, and I suspect that the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) is about to make that point. I disagree with the right hon. Member for Guildford for seeking indirectly to make a point about the need for the European fighter aircraft and its cost. That aircraft is central to the United Kingdom's defence and to the success and future of British Aerospace. However, I do not believe that the export of Hawk aircraft to Indonesia is necessary for BAe's survival.
During the summer, the Prime Minister talked about introducing morality into politics. I have some reservations about the extent to which politicians of any kind should start moralising, but how about introducing morality into British policy on Indonesia?
Mr. Evans:
I was also a little taken aback when my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell) started trading the EFA for money for the World Service and various other purposes. I am not saying that money should not be directed at such organisations, but one cannot go about it that way. Nevertheless, is it Liberal Democrat policy to stop the sale of Hawk trainer aircraft to Indonesia?
Mr. Campbell:
Yes, absolutely. I will send the hon. Gentleman a copy of my speech to my party's annual conference, which made exactly that point--which I am repeating. If there is merit in consistency, perhaps I may be allowed a certain measure of self-congratulation for that, if nothing else.
If we are concerned about the moral high ground, why does not the UK take a lead in a campaign to achieve an outright ban on the production, export and use of anti-personnel land mines? Why does not the UK renounce the manufacture, sale and deployment of anti-personnel land mines? Can there be any greater rebuke to our conscience than that, every day of every year, thousands of men, women and children lose their lives or limbs as a result of the indiscriminate use of land mines? Is it not an affront to humanity that a device that costs $3 to make and $1,000 to clear should cause such widespread civilian casualties? Is it not to our shame that so many of those casualties are in the third world? The military case for anti-personnel land mines is increasingly challenged by senior military commanders who previously had responsibility for the deployment of those weapons. The moral case against them is overwhelming and unanswerable.
Many land mines have been indiscriminately strewn around Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Gracious Speech commits the Government
On the hypothesis that the international community resolved that there should be a follow-on force, the Secretary of State for Defence said that the United Kingdom should be part of it, as should the United States. Everyone agrees that the implementation force has been a remarkable achievement. However, we know that there is still instability in Bosnia-Herzegovina and that the ingredients for tragedy, despair and destruction are still there. We must not throw away the gains made in the past few months. I believe that there must be a follow-on force. The United Kingdom should be exercising every diplomatic effort to achieve that. The answer to the first question must therefore be that there will be a follow-on force and to the second that the United Kingdom will be part of it.
There will be risks involved in any such force. British service men and women will be put at risk, but I do not believe that the international community can risk a return to the endless litany of horror and degradation that has been suffered for so many years in a country that is right at the heart of Europe.
The right hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) dealt forcefully and effectively with the issue of war criminals. We must robustly and with dedication bring to justice those who have been accused of war crimes. They must not be allowed to escape the consequences of their inhuman behaviour, if that is established in evidence. They must not be allowed to flout the civilised standards of conduct which it is incumbent on us all to follow. As I understand it, the right hon. Member for Livingston said that it was a matter of deterrence. He said that, if we do not deal with it effectively on this occasion, in the future others will feel free to visit the same sort of horrors on other people. That may be true, but there is a more fundamental point: the intrinsic evil of the actions of those against whom the allegations have been made is such that they should be brought to justice, irrespective of any question of deterrence.
The United Nations failed to bring peace to Bosnia, but it succeeded in keeping many people alive and in preventing even worse bloodshed. It failed because its members gave it ambiguous political objectives and inadequate resources for the mission that it was directed to fulfil.
Mr. Fabricant:
Does the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the United Nations also failed because it does not have a command structure like that in NATO and that, therefore, it was bound to fail even if it had been given the political directions that he claims it lacked?
Mr. Campbell:
I am coming to elements of reform which I hope might find ready acceptance from the hon. Gentleman.
If the United Nations is to be more effective in the future, it must be reformed. There is a political crisis--that may be an overworked word, but there is certainly political anxiety at the heart of the United Nations as we conduct this debate--about the future of the office of Secretary-General. I do not believe that whether Mr. Boutros-Ghali has done well or badly matters any longer. The fact is that he has lost the confidence of the United States. The United States is a permanent member of the Security Council and, for the sake of the United Nations, Mr. Boutros-Ghali should step down because the UN cannot afford the paralysis of a dispute in the Security Council about who should be its Secretary-General. However, there is a quid pro quo for such a gesture, which is that the United States Congress should release immediately funds to pay the outstanding contributions of the United States, which now amount to $2 billion. I suppose that, in a practical if not a theoretical sense, the United Nations may be on the verge of bankruptcy. We cannot tolerate that.
The hon. Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Fabricant) raised questions of reform. I shall tell him what I think is an essential minimum programme of reform for the UN. First, there must be an end to the financial profligacy that has characterised so much of what the UN has done. There must be an end to the overstaffing that
has bedevilled the UN. There must be an end to appointments made on country of origin rather than on merit. We need a UN agency--this has been referred to obliquely, if not directly, by the right hon. Member for Livingston--for the prevention and suppression of conflict. We should resurrect the military committee of the UN and there should be a staff college responsible for the formulation and revision of peacekeeping doctrine and for instruction in peacekeeping techniques. We should resolve the much vexed question of assigned forces being available for rapid response at the instigation of the Security Council and in reliance of appropriate resolutions. That is the minimum programme of reforms necessary if the United Nations is to perform with more success in circumstances such as those it met in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
This was the year of the Scott report. I have listened to Ministers and read with interest their responses. Nothing has persuaded me that the events that led to Lord Justice Scott being invited to carry out his extensive inquiry could not happen again. Nothing has been said or written which, in my judgment, would prevent a similar set of circumstances from arising.
The Foreign Secretary made what one might describe as a statement in relation to certain allegations about Government policy towards Argentina. I am one of those who believe that we should seek to improve our relations with Argentina. The future of the Falkland islanders will best be secured by an atmosphere of, if not trust, at least a higher degree of co-operation. I have met the ambassador and officials from Argentina and I have no doubt that other hon. Members who are similarly motivated will have done the same.
We know that serious allegations are being made which suggest that certain equipment which would otherwise have been the subject of embargo has been supplied. The Foreign Secretary made a careful statement, but he did not answer all the questions in my mind. I want to pose those questions because it is right that they should be on the record.
Has policy towards Argentina and the supply of arms or arms-related equipment changed in any way since it was first formulated? Has that policy been subject to different interpretation at any time since its formulation? Has Rolls-Royce been permitted to supply marine engine spares for use in Argentine navy warships? If it has done so, was it with the knowledge of officials in any Government Department? If it has done so, was it with the knowledge of Ministers from any Government Department? If Rolls-Royce has supplied marine engine spares for use in warships, would that be contrary to the Government's published policy? The House is entitled to have answers to those questions.
Several of those who have contributed to the debate have referred to the middle east. I believe that there is an opportunity for Europe, acting collectively, to exert a beneficial influence in that region. Most assuredly, we have an interest in the region and we have historic associations with many countries there.
The recent eruption of unrest between Israel and the Palestinians came about as a result of an action regarded by the Palestinians as extremely provocative, but the underlying cause of that eruption was the departure from
the principle of land for peace, which lay at the centre of the Oslo accord. The Secretary of State mentioned the need for early withdrawal from Hebron by Israeli forces, but that would not be an end of the process. Withdrawal from Hebron should be the first step in a revitalised peace process, in which the Oslo accord and the principles on which it was founded should be the centrepiece of negotiation.
The Secretary of State told us that he was going on a tour to the middle east and would eschew megaphone diplomacy. I doubt that anyone would criticise that. Nevertheless, I suggest to him, and to others responsible for formulating United Kingdom policy on that matter, that the centrepiece of our policy should be an acceptance that the European Union should take a much more vigorous role in endeavouring to help the peace process.
We should urge Israel to cease provocation such as the continuing building of new settlements. We should urge Israel to implement the Oslo accord. We should urge Israel to end the closures of the occupied territories, which have such a devastating effect on the Palestine economy. We should urge Israel to end its predatory action in relation to the city of Jerusalem. We should urge Israel to abandon its threat to close the Orient house in Jerusalem.
"to support peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina, encouraging full compliance with the Peace Agreement and promoting reconciliation between the former warring parties."
None of us wants to detract from that objective, but the real issue is whether there will be a follow-on force to IFOR and, if so, whether the UK will be part of it. We know the answer to the second question but not the first, because the Secretary of State for Defence answered the second question in the affirmative last week.
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