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Dr. David Clark: The mists of time have affected the hon. Gentleman's memory. We had a good, clean fight. I shall not remind him of my majority, but it was considerable. Before he gets too carried away on unilateralism, I should like to point out that I resigned as the deputy Labour spokesman on defence in 1981 when the party went unilateralist because I was a multilateralist.
Mr. Fabricant: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman has said that, because it confirms two points: first, that he is a decent sort of fellow; and, secondly, that the Labour party was unilateralist and, I believe, jeopardised the peace as a consequence. Our strength at that time maintained the peace and resulted in our winning the cold war, bringing democracy to the poor benighted people of Russia.
The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Mr. James Arbuthnot): I should point out to my hon. Friend that the hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) has still not answered the question that he was asked last week; why, if he was a multilateralist, did he say that he would not be prepared to use nuclear weapons, destroying the point of having a nuclear deterrent?
Mr. Fabricant: That is a disturbing thing to hear. There is no point in having nuclear weapons if the potential enemy believes that we would never use them. They have to be there as a deterrent. Please God, nuclear weapons will never be used in action, but they have to exist as a deterrent and they must be credible. Nuclear weapons have no credibility unless people believe that a country is prepared to use them.
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey): Nuclear weapons have been used.
Mr. Fabricant: The hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), in her high-pitched voice, is criticising the fact that nuclear weapons have to be available and--[Interruption.] Would the hon. Lady like to intervene?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Janet Fookes): Order. Seated interventions are not welcome to the Chair.
Mr. Fabricant: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. They are not welcome to me either.
The Leader of the Opposition has talked about his role model being Margaret Thatcher. He now finds himself crossed with the Archbishop of Canterbury with his views on morality. It is interesting that he, too, has caught up with the Tories on defence. I am not convinced by that, but it is reassuring that he has seen the light. But why should anyone go for the imitation when they can have the real thing?
The right hon. Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook) asked why we were so opposed to the social chapter, saying that the minimum wage would be a marvellous thing. If it is so marvellous, why does the Labour party not say what the minimum wage should be? I suppose that, if the Conservative party wanted to go for cheap votes, we could say that we liked the idea of a minimum
wage and then set it at a very low rate of 10p or 20p an hour. Labour Members are not prepared to put their commitment where their mouths are, so we do not know what their commitment to the minimum wage is. As in so many other areas, there is no beef to their policy; they just make empty promises.
The right hon. Member for Livingston welcomed works councils. We should not forget that the Conservative party first came up with the idea of stakeholding, and promoted it. In previous Budgets, the Conservative party has encouraged employee share participation and has given employees the chance to own shares in their company and gain tax relief on them.
We have had an interesting debate. I am pleased that we have four pillars on which to pursue our foreign policy: strengthening our position in Europe; strengthening the transatlantic alliance; encouraging world trade; and promoting our relationship with the developing tigers in the far east.
If the World Trade Organisation can reach its objectives by 2020, there will be free trade throughout the developed world. I should like to pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister who, some years ago--in this Parliament--successfully ensured the passage of the general agreement on tariffs and trade Uruguay round, which led to the formation of the WTO.
Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann):
We are focusing today on the aspects of the Gracious Speech relating to defence and foreign affairs. You will appreciate, Madam Deputy Speaker, that it is with mixed feelings that I note that the ambit of our debate on foreign affairs has been widened by the inclusion in the foreign affairs section of the Gracious Speech of a reference to Northern Ireland. That is unwelcome to my hon. Friends and me, as well as to the people of Northern Ireland.
Unfortunately, the practice of including the reference to Northern Ireland in the foreign affairs section of the Gracious Speech developed more than 20 years ago. It was precisely 20 years ago that the former hon. Member for South Down, Mr. Enoch Powell, framed and tabled an amendment to the motion on the Loyal Address on behalf of the Ulster Unionist party. It is with regret that we have to repeat that amendment exactly. There was a period when the reference to Northern Ireland was in the right section of the Gracious Speech, but for some reason it has slipped back in the past couple of years. That sends the wrong signals to a host of people. I am not sure why it is done and I should appreciate an explanation from the Government.
I note the references in the Gracious Speech to the fight against terrorism and the commitment
Several references have been made during the debate to central and eastern Europe. Hon. Members will know that there is the potential for conflict in many areas of central and eastern Europe, where national boundaries do not correspond precisely with ethnic and national groups. In some areas, such potential conflict has been defused by recourse to concepts worked out in human rights law, and in particular the principles developed in recent years by what is now called the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe.
I shall refer in particular to the treaty between Hungary and Romania concluded on 16 September this year. Hon. Members will know that there are significant minority problems in Romania, which has between 1.7 million and 2 million Hungarians, living mainly in Transylvania. Hungarians continue to suffer ill-treatment by the Romanian Government.
The issue was drawn to my attention last September, when I had the honour of being included in the United Kingdom delegation to the Inter-Parliamentary Union. During my visit to Bucharest, I attended a meeting of all the bishops in Romania except those of the Orthodox Church. In Romania, Churches are organised on a communal basis. The Orthodox Church is ethnically Romanian, while the other Churches--the Roman Catholic, Reformed, Presbyterian and Unitarian Churches--are all ethnically Hungarian. I met the bishops of the Hungarian Churches, who told me about the discrimination suffered by the Hungarian minority at the hands of the Romanian Government.
That is a matter of great concern, in a part of Europe where boundaries were changed in the 1920s and 1940s. I hope that the potential for conflict is defused by the treaty between the Governments of Hungary and Romania.
It will come as no surprise to the House to hear that I very much approve of article 4 to that treaty. Let me briefly draw attention to its main provision:
That is generally accepted, even in regions where the existing borders are not ideal. I am thinking particularly of the justifiable argument that citizens of Crimea could raise in regard to the inclusion of Crimea in the Ukraine. They could claim that it was a rather capricious act of Stalin in the late 1940s. It had no significance at the time as both
countries were part of the USSR, but now it has considerable significance for the mainly Russian population of the Crimea. The Russian Government have been careful not to raise even the suspicion of a territorial claim to that area.
The treaty between Hungary and Romania deals with all aspects of the relationship between the two countries, particularly with provisions to protect the rights of national minorities. I shall not deal with them in detail, but the starting point is for the two Governments to accept and to apply as legal obligations the extensive provisions defining the rights of persons belonging to national minorities and religious groups as contained in certain instruments of the United Nations and the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe.
It is obvious where the argument leads. Romania and Hungary are not alone in experiencing such problems. The same is happening in other parts of central and eastern Europe, such as the Baltic states, which have substantial ethnic minorities. The solution to minority issues in those countries will probably be along the lines of the agreement between Romania and Hungary.
I am not suggesting that the treaty is perfect; I know that the Romanian minority is disappointed that no provision has been made for autonomy for the regions where the Hungarians form local majorities. There is a strong argument for making extensive provisions for local autonomy in such circumstances. However, the agreement sets out the basic principles for dealing with minority issues, which will probably be applied in the Baltic states.
As the Gracious Speech refers to promoting respect for international instruments, why do the Government resolutely refuse to apply the principles contained in agreements to which the United Kingdom is party to the minority problem and the conflict within the British Isles? Instead of following the example of the rest of Europe and implementing agreements that the British and Irish Governments have entered into, we are saddled with the failed Anglo-Irish Agreement. I make no apology for describing it as having failed; one has only to look at the record of the past 11 years. Events this summer demonstrated the complete bankruptcy of that agreement, which is now used as an instrument to create trouble rather than peace.
The Anglo-Irish Agreement was entered into before most of the OSCE instruments that are now being applied. Why are the Government not prepared seriously to consider replacing it with something along the lines of the agreement entered into between Romania and Hungary?
The OSCE agreements and accords contain provisions that enable any country involved in the OSCE to raise issues with regard to other countries. I am thinking particularly of the Moscow mechanism, which enables countries to raise questions about the treatment of minorities in other countries, and the Copenhagen accord, which established the Commissioner for National Minorities. Those two instruments constitute a mechanism for some external supervision of the treatment of minorities. If the Irish Government have an interest in ensuring fair treatment of the Irish nationalist minority in the United Kingdom, the OSCE Commissioner for National Minorities and the Moscow mechanism represent a means by which they can reflect that interest. The procedure and machinery established by the failed agreement of 1985 is now redundant. It has been overtaken by events and developments in European law.
The Gracious Speech also refers to the fight against terrorism--a matter of real concern in my part of the United Kingdom and to the citizens of London in view of the warnings about renewed terrorist activity by Sinn Fein-IRA. We are glad that the security forces succeeded in foiling major outrages here in London in June and September. Any problems and deficiencies that might have crept into the intelligence network during the IRA ceasefire have obviously been repaired to the extent that vigilance was successful. We accept that one cannot always be successful if one thinks merely in terms of defending targets. For various reasons, lapses may occur and the bomb may get through. The incident at Thiepval barracks in Lisburn underlines that point.
We need more than just a defensive response; we need to do more than just try to defend the likely targets of terrorist aggression. We need a more positive security response. I think that people throughout the United Kingdom are somewhat surprised that, in the months since 9 February when IRA-Sinn Fein resumed violence, the Government have not been more active and that it has taken so long for a security response to terrorism to develop. I hope that things on that front will change in the near future.
I should refer also to the Prime Minister's comments yesterday on terrorism and the position of Sinn Fein with regard to the inter-party talks. With reference to the renewal of violence by Sinn Fein-IRA, I particularly note that he said:
We also need to deal with the associated issue of the decommissioning of terrorist weapons. I shall not go into detail--certainly not into the detail in which the matter is being discussed at the inter-party talks in the Stormont grounds at the moment, where I think that about three whole days have been devoted to the debate and only three people have spoken.
Another three whole days on the issue have been promised for next week, so I shall not go into detail save to say that in the paper that we published on 30 September, we were careful to identify the minimum
necessary commitments to be given by the Government on legislation, establishment of the international verification commission, the procedure to be followed if Sinn Fein ever entered the process and the timetable to be observed at that point. They are minimum requirements.
I am rather disappointed by the reference in the Gracious Speech to the legislation on decommissioning. It says that the Government merely
"to promote respect for human rights and the international rule of law."
I should like to address the latter topic first, drawing the attention of the House in particular to the way in which human rights and international law have been used, are being used and can be used to resolve conflicts in many parts of Europe.
"The Contracting Parties confirm that, in accordance with the principles and norms of international law and the principles of the Helsinki Final Act, they shall respect the inviolability of their common border and the territorial integrity of the other Party. They further confirm that they have no territorial claims on each other and that they shall not raise any such claims in the future."
I note that they regard that as being in accordance with the principles and norms of international law, and they are quite right. The Governments concerned appear to agree that the basic principle for addressing the potential for conflict with national minorities in central and eastern Europe is respect for existing frontiers and the complete absence of territorial claims.
"That is plainly incompatible with joining the talks. They have excluded themselves by their return to violence".
The phrase, "They have excluded themselves" is significant. He did not say that they are excluding themselves. It is quite definite that they have excluded themselves. That must surely mean that we have reached a point where the possibility of Sinn Fein-IRA entering the process has gone. The Government may want to use a formula suggesting that the theoretical possibility is open, but in the real world we must acknowledge that it has gone. That was reinforced by the Prime Minister's comments that
"The IRA and Sinn Fein should be under no illusion that they can join the process until they have demonstrated real commitment to democratic and non-violent methods."--[Official Report, 23 October 1996; Vol. 284, c. 31-32.]
If one is to use such language, which appears to hold open the possibility of a return by Sinn Fein to the political process, it is necessary at present to spell out precisely what is meant by a
"real commitment to democratic and non-violent methods."
We do not want a repeat of the situation in 1994, when ambiguous formulas were used. The Government hummed and hawed about their response and made working assumptions, which have since been disproved by events. We need precision as to what is meant by a ceasefire in this context.
"stand ready to introduce legislation."
I had gathered from bilateral discussions with the Government that their position was not passive, but active. I had been given the impression that the legislation would be dealt with in November. Consequently, I was disappointed at the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth), when he asked in business questions earlier when the Second Reading of the Bill would be. He discovered that it would not be in the first tranche of Second Readings, and the Leader of the House was unable to give any precise guidance on when it would be. That is very disappointing and, again, is sending the wrong signals. We need that legislation to be under way as quickly as possible. I shall give way to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he wishes to comment.
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