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Mr. Nicholas Winterton: I am listening to the argument being advanced by the hon. Gentleman and I have a great deal of sympathy with what he is saying about overstretch, which was reflected by my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Dr. Goodson-Wickes). The hon. Gentleman did, however, say earlier that the Opposition would consider a strategic defence review. If it became apparent from that review that additional resources were necessary to enable Her Majesty's forces to undertake all the functions and responsibilities that they have throughout the world, which, as the hon. Gentleman said, are now greater than at any time since the second world war, would his Government provide the money?
Dr. Clark: I understand the sympathy that the hon. Gentleman has for me, because I remember the fight that he had on behalf of the Cheshire regiments.
Dr. Clark: My hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston was also very much part of that campaign, and I know how hard they both fought to try to ensure that the regiments were maintained.
The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) makes a fair point. We have said that we will provide whatever resources are needed for the defence of Britain, but it is important that we match our commitment with the resources available. That will be the role of our strategic defence review.
I have tried to argue that there are areas on which there is consensus and areas on which there is potential consensus. There are, however, some things that we believe the Government have got completely and utterly wrong. Their obsession with privatisation really is bizarre. No other country in the world would sell off the strategic asset of the married quarters of its military, especially to a foreign country. It is just bizarre. It not only imposes a great deal of uncertainty on thousands of Army and military families but it imposes a real limitation on the flexibility and deployment of our forces and has placed a financial albatross around the necks of successive Secretaries of State for Defence for decades to come.
What is worrying is that the Government's privatisation mania knows no bounds. They really are sell-off mad. The Defence Secretary's dogma has overcome his common sense. We have seen what privatisation leads to when Tornado aircraft are refitted. Airworks Ltd., a company at St. Athan's, actually wrecked a Tornado. It was only because of the skill of RAF technicians and personnel that we found the damage that had been done. It was not only financial damage, running into tens of millions--or even hundreds of millions--but RAF pilots were expected to take those wrecked aeroplanes up, all in the name of the mania of privatisation.
Today's news was the final straw. Cowies, the major bus company in the constituency next to mine, made its fortune by buying second-hand military motor cycles, repainting them and selling them back to the public. It is interested in buying Challenger 2 tanks and leasing them back to the Army on a monthly basis. That may amuse the House, but it is the Government's latest ploy, and it is plain daft.
Mr. Menzies Campbell:
The hon. Gentleman is perhaps being a little hard on the Government over this sale and lease-back proposal. We had exclusive responsibility for our tanks immediately prior to the Gulf war, but it took three armoured divisions in Germany to enable us to put one armoured division in the field to assist the allied effort in that war.
Dr. Clark:
The hon. and learned Gentleman is right. The military effort of the Warsaw pact was poor, but to be frank, ours was not much better. Thank God it was that much better, and we were able by other means to destroy the Warsaw pact.
I used to think that privatisation was a bit of a joke. I also used to joke that the Government should take their arguments to their logical conclusion. Why do they not go the whole hog and privatise our armed forces? The Navy could go to P and O and operate under flags of convenience: that would be the best way. The RAF could be franchised to Virgin Atlantic Airways, although I fear that this Government would choose Freddie Laker. The
Army could go to Securicor or Channel 4--[Hon. Members: "Group 4."] Group 4. Tragically, as each day passes those jokes turn into reality. A future Government may be so desperate that they will have to take such action.
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Michael Portillo):
This is the second time in 10 days that we have heard the hon. Member for South Shields (Dr. Clark) make that speech. It did not improve with time. He requires a little more rehearsal on the punch lines if he is to get his jokes in. On the whole, however, in the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Dr. Goodson-Wickes), this has been an extremely civilised debate. It has included some very distinguished contributions.
I was not present for a short period, so I did not hear all the contributions, but my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Elletson) made a distinguished speech, and my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) toured the world in 15 minutes. My right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell) has the talent of being able to step back from the world scene and observe the trends. He sees the way in which our world is developing and the shifting centres on our globe. He can perceive the advantageous position that Britain occupies in that world: a Britain playing a global role; a Britain with a language that gives her a particular advantage, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary said in his opening remarks.
We had the good fortune to hear from the hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Ross), who is a governor of the Westminster Foundation for Democracy. I join him in paying tribute to that organisation for its good work.
The hon. Member for Dundee, West and my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley asked important questions about Rwanda and Zaire, which is an area of great concern to the House. Both Governments deny beginning cross-border shelling. We have appealed bilaterally to Rwanda and Zaire to calm the situation. We have received assurances from both sides and the situation seems to have calmed.
Hon. Members spoke about refugees in southern Kivu. Our posts in Kingali and Kinshasa are closely monitoring the position and keeping in touch with UN agencies and the non-governmental organisations. We are concerned by reports of a large-scale internal displacement at Kivu, but so far there has been no major refugee flow across the borders.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary met Zaire's Prime Minister Kengo during his visit to London on 22 October and discussed the recent escalation of conflict in eastern Zaire. He encouraged him to remain
in close contact with all the regional leaders and to do all that he can to defuse the tension with Rwanda and among the different ethnic groups in eastern Zaire.
The hon. Member for Dundee, West was concerned to know what part we would play in making sure that the elections were free and fair. They will not be held until May but we are considering what help the United Kingdom can give to ensure that they are free and fair. We are supporting the work of the Ligue des Electeurs, which is a Kinshasa-based NGO promoting democracy in Zaire. Experts from the European Union and the United Nations are also assisting in the work of the national electoral commission.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon said that he had unfashionable views about the enlargement of NATO. His remarks seemed to find an echo in the interventions of my right hon. Friend the Member for Honiton (Sir P. Emery) and my hon. Friend the Member for East Lindsey (Sir P. Tapsell). The subject was also mentioned in a distinguished way by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Staffordshire (Mr. Fabricant).
I should make it clear that NATO enlargement is part of a number of processes that are going on within NATO. It is obviously adapting to the post cold-war world and is restructuring, planning for new missions and welcoming France and Spain into a new integrated military structure. Therefore enlargement should be seen as one of many changes that will produce a different alliance. NATO does not see itself as being hellbent on its own expansion. It is not an aggressive organisation wishing to take in more and more members--rather the initiative has rested with the applicants who have made a strong moral appeal to NATO. They have put it to us that they would have been members of the western family of nations decades ago if they had not suffered for such a long time under communist regimes. We must acknowledge a moral obligation towards them.
NATO is certainly not a political club: it is a military alliance, but the process by which nations try to reform themselves and their procedures to qualify for membership of NATO has a strong effect on entrenching their democracies and, of course, NATO will insist on clear evidence that these are permanently established, pluralistic societies before it can admit them to the alliance. Military alliance it is, but one cannot deny that there is also a political dimension to accession.
We are conscious of Russia's attitude. Of course it has security concerns. We want to make it perfectly clear that there is nothing aggressive about NATO's expansion. We certainly want to build with Russia a new European security architecture. Some believe that we should delay the process of enlargement during the period of difficulty in Russia while President Yeltsin suffers bad health. My view is rather that, in an uncertain position, the obligation on NATO is to inject whatever certainty it can. By sticking to the moderate, but clear and certain timetable that we have developed, we inject certainty into that position.
None of us is able to define precisely what the new European security architecture involving Russia will look like. We cannot describe the finished product, but we can distinguish the first steps that should be taken. In particular, with Russia's work alongside the implementation force in Bosnia, we have found that we have had to establish certain liaison arrangements between
Russia and NATO. Those arrangements have been working well. They can be extended and made permanent. Yesterday, I had the pleasure of meeting Colonel-General Shevtsov, the Russian representative to IFOR, at Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe in Mons.
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