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Mr. Simon Hughes: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Obviously the right hon. Gentleman is very experienced in these matters, but I am a little confused, because a day is allocated next week for a debate on education policy--[Interruption.] This is a serious point. Today we are supposed to be debating health, social security and social policy. I wonder whether a debate on education is appropriate or in order, as no education Ministers or Opposition spokesmen are in the Chamber.
Madam Deputy Speaker: The allocation of subjects for days is for guidance, so that the relevant Ministers can
be present in the Chamber, but that does not prevent an hon. Member from dealing with an issue within the ambit of the Queen's Speech, which is quite broad.
Mr. Peter Bottomley: Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. There cannot be one intervention immediately following another.
Sir Rhodes Boyson: I will give way.
Mr. Bottomley: My right hon. Friend was making a very important point. Most hon. Members who have represented inner London constituencies, and perhaps those in other areas, remember a time when children could not enter the school their parents chose because they had done too well in the hidden 11-plus examinations. All children in inner London were required to take the 11-plus, and if they did too well they could not get into the school of their choice. That practice struck me as being deceitful to those children and their parents. It also provides completely the wrong incentives for parents, given that the Plowden research studies of primary schools, published in 1967, stated that the most important aspect in a child's education was appropriate interest and encouragement.
Sir Rhodes Boyson: I agree that parental involvement is vital but in addition children must be taught at the level of their ability.
I will explain why I am speaking on this subject now. I know that the Liberal Democrats have many narrow objections--that is probably why the country does not like them--but the debate on the Queen's Speech should be a wide one. It should not deal only with bits and pieces--we can do that at any time--but should address Government policy as a whole. The hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) may raise his eyes to the skies if he wishes, but he should have some vision and not count paperclips.
We were discussing comprehensive schools. During the many years when I was a headmaster, London tried to make comprehensive schools work. Ability groups were divided in an attempt to secure the same spread of ability in every school, but it could not be done. People would not stand for it and used every means to outwit the system. Human nature always outwits systems that it dislikes. People moved house or gave other people's addresses and the system broke down.
Anyone who wants selection should want comprehensive schools, because in theory they represent the ultimate in selection. Twenty per cent. of a comprehensive school's pupils should be from the top 20 per cent., 40 per cent. from the next 40 per cent. and 40 per cent. from the bottom 40 per cent. That was attempted in London, but it simply did not work. It has never worked anywhere in the country except in rural areas which have only one school. In rural areas, there is a general feeling that comprehensive schooling works.
Grant-maintained schools which have become some of the most selective in their areas have done very well. To introduce grant-maintained schools was an imaginative
gesture by the Government and formed a bridge to enable the return of selection as Conservative policy and, I hope, Labour policy. In my constituency, I did not interfere in parents' wishes for their children, whether they wanted local authority or grant-maintained schools, but now all but one of the schools in my constituency are grant maintained and they have been transformed. At the general election, I shall not hesitate to remind my constituents of the Labour party's intentions for such schools. The Labour party has delivered voters into my hands by saying that it would return schools to local authority control, without selection by interview or examination. Five grant-maintained schools serve my constituency: Claremont school, Preston Manor, Kingsbury school, Copeland school and St. Gregory's. Only one secondary school in my constituency is not grant maintained.
I wish to conclude on some broad themes. First, the role of the family in our society must be restructured. We must ensure that every piece of legislation that we pass helps the family and does not hinder it. Secondly, as a society we must decide how we will look after our aged citizens, of whom there will be more in every generation. We must find ways of encouraging people to save for a contented old age. Thirdly, we must continue the return to selection and ensure that it is carried out fairly and well.
All schools have to teach a basic curriculum in English, mathematics, some science, geography and other subjects. The current national curriculum is too narrow, but it is a start. However, every school should have a specialty--a subject for which it can fly the flag and of which it can be proud. I want there to be a vast number of specialist schools. We are basically a city people and, as I have said, the comprehensive system really worked only in rural areas. We could have classical or foreign language schools, sports schools or music schools and children would want to go the school that specialised in the subject that interested them. Each school could offer two hours daily tuition in its specialist subject.
Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead):
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Brent, North(Sir R. Boyson). I strongly agreed with his last point, and I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will adhere to that wisdom. I also agree that the Queen's Speech offers us the chance not to carry out a sectional analysis of society, but to take a broader view of Britain and its place in the world. There were powerful themes in the right hon. Gentleman's speech--the role of human nature in our society and the folly of politicians who think that, with their schemes, they can outwit human nature, which is a lesson we should all learn. Although I do not normally disagree with my friends on the Liberal Benches, I do so today because, as the right hon. Gentleman said, we must try to be visionary in our approach.
Listening to the Secretary of State for Health, who spoke for 48 minutes, I thought that the media had, for once, undersold the content of the Queen's Speech, because we learnt that the Government's strategy was to take out all controversial measures and spend the next six months piloting through the remaining few Bills on which there was substantial agreement. For the first 45 minutes of his 48-minute speech, it appeared that the Health Secretary had hit on another strategy: although he had a Bill, so to speak, hinted at in the Queen's Speech, I thought that he was not even going to comment on it and that it would be kept secret for as long as possible. I was, therefore, pleased when he managed to spend the last three minutes of his 48-minute speech telling us what would be in that primary care Bill, which acts as a suitable starting point for my speech.
The measures that the Secretary of State said that the Government would introduce and the medley of themes in the Queen's Speech that are designed to establish greater order in our society will strike a chord in most constituencies, not least in Birkenhead. However, the way in which my constituents will judge the Queen's Speech may differ from that of the Treasury Bench. The vast majority of voters in Birkenhead, decent people, are attempting to hold the line against a new form of barbarism that is sweeping through inner-city and other areas. It obviously relates to primary health care, which the Secretary of State said was the jewel in the crown of the NHS, because, in the poorest areas, those services are under enormous pressure and some are being withdrawn.
I cite what was my own doctor's practice in Birkenhead. Obviously, any decision is taken for many reasons, and therefore the reasons that I give are not the only ones that led to the loss of that primary health care centre in the centre of Birkenhead, but the behaviour of a very small minority of constituents played its part in the closure of the practice. The doctors were fed up with being physically threatened by a minority of my constituents. The receptionists were fed up with being stoned by very small minority of my younger constituents. Unbreakable glass was not enough to protect them against such behaviour.
When the Government lightly talk about a Queen's Speech that restores order, people will ask why there is such disorder, and whether the measures do much to protect the vast majority of my decent constituents, who are trying to hold the line against that new barbarism. They will ask whether it will deal effectively with the minority who plague the majority who want to continue to lead a decent life and adhere to civilised standards.
The Home Secretary's proposals in the Queen's Speech for successive law and order measures, although increasingly draconian, will be widely supported by many of my constituents among others; but are the root causes of the disorder in our society being tackled? In that context, it was important for the right hon. Member for Brent, North to speak about education.
In Birkenhead, as in many other places, unskilled jobs have been wiped out like snow disappearing in sunshine, so it is crucial that our schools do not continue to produce large numbers of school leavers who are suitable only for unskilled jobs. We must go further than even the right hon. Member for Brent, North advocates to cut the supply routes to the underclass.
If people leave school--as they do even in some of the best schools--unable to read and write, their chances of ever holding a job are almost nil. It is criminal, therefore, to allow people to leave school unable to read and write, let alone to acquire other necessary skills for the fast-developing labour market. Instead of a statutory school leaving age, there should be a school leaving period, defined by a person's skills.
We should not be prepared to condemn people to a life of unemployment, for that is what we do if they do not have basic skills. As a society, we should make a pact with them, telling them, "We shall not put you into the labour market if there is not a fair chance of your acquiring a job." I am not saying that there are enough jobs, but figures show that a person with skills has far less chance of being unemployed than a person without skills. That applies in my constituency as it does in the Secretary of State's constituency, which is, thank goodness, much better off than mine. I wish that my constituency were as well heeled as his is.
I welcome the chance that the Queen's Speech gives to bring various aspects of Government policy to bear on the law and order issue as the Government define it. Although some of the moves are welcome, they will prove inadequate for the vast majority of our decent constituents, who are trying to hold the line and defend civilised values against what they regard as the spread of a new barbarism, which engulfs and destroys their lives. It is easy enough for me to speak; I do not suffer the incessant gang warfare that is unleashed against them for trying to hold the line. They seek much more imaginative measures from the Government to help them to do so.
Like the right hon. Member for Brent, North, I shall comment on social security and the part that it plays in destroying decent civilised life, but I shall also welcome some of the Bills that the Secretary of State for Social Security will introduce this Session.
I believe that I can fairly draw the attention of the House to the special relationship that the Select Committee on Social Security has developed with the Secretary of State. If they are lucky, other Select Committees receive Government responses published as White Papers. The Social Security Select Committee now expects Bills to follow its reports. We ask for a major inquiry into pension law reform; we get it and we get a Bill. We look critically at the compensation recovery unit; we get a Bill. We suggest that the Government talk a lot about fraud in benefits, but not nearly effectively enough; we receive an inadequate response, a holding reply, and now, if we are lucky enough to have read the Financial Times this morning, we shall have read a great deal about the fraud Bill, about which I am sure the Secretary of State will tell the House later.
I shall welcome that Bill, as, I am sure, will the Labour Front-Bench spokesmen. We shall aim to strengthen it by adding to it, for, if the Financial Times report is correct, it is an inadequate measure for one of the major issues that confront us. Although I do not blame the Secretary of State for putting a spin on the Bill, he is trying to move the debate about fraud back to claimant fraud and away from organised serious criminal fraud, which is where the Select Committee pitched the debate. The Bill will be judged not only on the extent to which it tackles claimant fraud but on the extent to which it tackles fraud by gangs who take large sums from the social security fund.
Although it may be important that, as I learn from the Financial Times today, the Secretary of State will have powers to gain information from local authorities in the administration of housing benefit, we shall note whether similar powers are sought to gain identical information from landlords, who may be behaving in a way that allows serious loss from the social security fund into their bank account, not into the right people's pockets.
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