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Mr. William McKelvey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun): The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Spring) makes a most eloquent and unanswerable case for assistance for an industry that he obviously knows well and loves. Perhaps I should declare an interest, because I wish to speak briefly on the greyhound industry. I am chair of the all-party greyhound group and was recently elected as a director of the British Greyhound Racing Board--unpaid, of course. I own and run greyhounds at Shawfield, and although they may not be as expensive to run as horses, I should not like to mention exactly what it costs me to run those three greyhounds, lest my wife reads Hansard some time.
Greyhound racing, like horse racing, has had a difficult time this year. We have lost tracks at Cradley Heath, Ramsgate and Sittingbourne. Middlesbrough is due to close in November, and the threat of imminent closure hangs over Bolton, Canterbury and Hackney. The ground on which the greyhounds run is more valuable for other uses, and we must try to reverse that trend.
The Gerald Eve report makes it clear that greyhound racing has already spent £6.6 million on safety measures, and still has to spend another £4.8 million and
£1.1 million a year to obtain certification under health and safety at grounds legislation. The greyhound industry, unlike the owners of football stadiums, has no additional help to meet the cost of those measures.
Once again, the off-course betting industry is asking that a betting duty reduction should go straight to punters. A similar duty cut last year added £27 million to the profits of the betting industry, but that industry still refuses to pay £2 million per year to the British greyhound racing fund, because its contributions are designated by the Government as voluntary. We collect an average of only 65 per cent. of the possible tally that is due.
What I would call the respectable bookies--the big firms such as Ladbroke, Hill and Coral--pay their share, although recently some of them have argued that they may resist paying unless they get their way in some of the fund meetings. The British Greyhound Racing Board seeks a reduction of 1 per cent. in the general betting duty, with the benefits of that reduction being passed to greyhound racing and horse racing. It also wants a statutory mechanism to ensure that all moneys that are intended to benefit greyhound racing are passed to the sport and do not form part of the betting industry's retained profits.
I know that the Government say that they are a liberalising body, but unless we in the greyhound industry have the statutory requirement, bookmakers will resist paying the full amount of money due, and they can always threaten to withhold that fund unless they get their own way.
The British Greyhound Racing Board has been unsuccessful in obtaining a meeting with the Minister and his assistants. May I ask him--I will write to him in any case--to give the board the opportunity for a brief meeting? I know that he has been given all the relevant articles, and I am sure that he has read and understood them, but it is important that such an important part of the racing industry receives the opportunity, just as the horse racing industry has done, for a meeting with him to explain the details of what we are asking.
Sir Fergus Montgomery (Altrincham and Sale):
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Spring) on raising this important issue. I must also declare an interest: I am a consultant to the National Association of Bookmakers Ltd.
My hon. Friend's point is of great importance to bookmakers throughout Britain, because the yearly drop in the number of betting shops causes great concern. I am told that there are about 9,000 betting shops, whereas, in the late 1960s, after betting shops had been legalised, there were about 16,000. The betting industry is having great difficulty in sustaining a profit level. If it cannot sustain that level, there will be more betting shop closures and more job losses.
My hon. Friend cited the example of Franco Dettori the other Saturday at Ascot, who went through the card and rode seven winners. That was phenomenal. A racing tipster studying all the form, receiving information and going through the card on any day happens once in a blue moon. For a jockey to have done that was incredible. I
cannot believe the number of people who apparently back every horse that Franco Dettori rides. Some people backed all seven horses, in all sorts of combinations and permutations, and won a great deal of money.
The barber I go to in Victoria street does the horses, and he told me, in great rage, that he had backed only six of Franco Dettori's horses. The barber had spent about £5. If he had backed all seven, he would have won £15,000. Because he had backed only six, he won £2,000. I told him that, if I ever won £2,000, I would be grateful, because I had never won anything like £2,000 on the horses, the football pools, the national lottery, the premium bonds or anything. I can only think that I must be lucky in love.
There is a need for a further cut in betting duty. My hon. Friend has stressed the concern over the proposed second weekly national lottery draw. The national lottery has had a devastating effect on the betting industry, but there is a simple solution, and I do not know why it has not been tried. It would help enormously if betting shops could sell tickets for the national lottery.
I cannot understand why we cannot allow bookmakers to take bets on the national lottery. It is amazing that I can go into a betting shop, see the fact advertised that I can bet on the Irish national lottery, but not be able to put one on the United Kingdom national lottery. It does not make sense; if betting shops could sell tickets for the UK lottery, it would give bookmakers an enormous boost, and help to keep some of them in business.
I am grateful for this chance to speak in the debate.
Sir John Cope (Northavon):
I make little apology--but I do make a little one--for taking a little of the Minister's time, because the real reply to this debate will come on 26 November, from my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I was the Treasury Minister involved in the VAT change to which my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Spring) referred, so I have an interest in the matter. I am chairman of a joint taxation committee of the British Horseracing Board, the British Horse Society and other equine interests.
The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Phillip Oppenheim):
May I first thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Spring) for his kind words? He is recognised in the House as a tireless and effective advocate for the horse racing industry. He said that he had made an unassailable case. I must warn him that that adjective has been somewhat devalued in not so distant years, but I catch his drift and agree that he made a strong case.
I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Sir F. Montgomery), my right hon. Friend the Member for Northavon (Sir J. Cope), my predecessor, in a manner of speaking, and the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Mr. McKelvey). I should be delighted to meet the British Greyhound Racing Board. I am just about old enough to remember when dogs ran at Stamford Bridge when I was a child, so I have a particular love for thatindustry.
I acknowledge the importance of the racing industry, in all its various forms, in our national life. It is an intrinsic, colourful and particularly beautiful part of our national life. It is important and has been asuccess.
I am grateful for the acknowledgment by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds of what the Government have done in recent years. The allowance for owners to register for and to reclaim VAT has been important. The duty cut in the last Budget has been mentioned, and the deregulation of betting shops, which can now open on Sundays and weekends, has also been important. Many of the points that have been made have been put to me in representations from the British Horseracing Board and other parts of the betting industry.
I want to touch briefly--to the extent that I may--on the points made about the national lottery's impact. I hope that hon. Members will understand the limitations on what I can say, because this is primarily the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for National Heritage. I am aware of the many arguments that the lottery has been given special privileges, and that it unfairly distorts a sector of the economy. I think that everyone acknowledges the money that has been given to good causes as a result of the lottery, but, at the same time, it has created a large vested interest.
There are also people who say that a Government who believe in open markets and free choice should perhaps be more sympathetic to allowing the laying of bets on lottery results. The anomaly has been raised that it is legal to take bets on the Irish lottery, but not our own. I merely report those views rather than endorse them, because, as I hope my hon. Friends understand, the difficulty of my position is that I am not directly responsible for that sector, but I hope that the Secretary of State for National Heritage will carefully consider hon. Members' points on thoseissues.
I hope that the House will understand that, with the Budget only four weeks away, there is little more that I can say, but I assure hon. Members on both sides of the House that their comments will be taken into careful consideration in the run-up to the Budget.
1.53 pm
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