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Mr. Harry Barnes (North-East Derbyshire): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have just received an answer to a question about lottery funding that I tabled to the Secretary of State for National Heritage. I asked whether details could be provided by constituency, in rank order. The information has been provided on computer disk in the Library. In the answer, however, the Department states that the figures for the most recent quarter cannot be provided in rank order--although the figures have been provided to the hon. Members concerned--because of the disproportionate cost of doing
so. I believe that it would be a simple exercise to provide the information. Perhaps I could also suggest to the Secretary of State that her Department should apply for a lottery grant so that my question can be answered.
Madam Deputy Speaker: That is not a matter for the Chair. However, the hon. Gentleman will no doubt find other ways in which to express his disappointment.
5.35 pm
Sir Edward Heath (Old Bexley and Sidcup): I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will not be embarrassed if, in what I hope will be a brief speech, I commend him on his action today on interest rates. I believe that he was absolutely right to do so, although, to some extent, I regret the situation that made such action necessary. I am sure that he realises that we cannot expect to be popular with our fellow citizens by increasing interest rates. From my experience, I know that the great majority of people were hoping that we had reached a point at which there would be no more increases.
I also fear that the increase will create or increase a feeling of insecurity that affects many people, and that they will feel that this is only the first stage. It is commendable that the Chancellor will not hesitate to increase rates further if necessary, if this increase does not solve the situation.
I also regret the fact that the increase is necessary because of high unemployment. I recognise, of course, how much has been accomplished to reduce unemployment, but it is still very high. For many years, some hon. Members, and some Conservative Members, have denied any connection between unemployment and the various social ills from which we suffer. Perhaps those of us with an earlier experience have never accepted that view at all. In a variety of spheres--most recently in our schools, but also in the abuse of drugs and violence on the streets--the malevolent influence of unemployment is increasingly becoming apparent. Therefore, from the social point of view, I think that dealing with unemployment should have the highest priority.
I listened with the greatest interest to what the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) said about one industry, and I share his views. He has brought home to us the problems that the Government face in trying to facilitate the creation of new industry and in helping it to develop at a satisfactory speed. The problem is particularly acute if the Government have been brought up on the dogma that they must not do anything to influence our industrial life. That outlook has changed gradually over the past three to four years, but the problem remains the same.
As the right hon. Member for Gorton emphasised, the situation can be helped enormously by our official organisations--such as the BBC--which I hope will be the case. The problems facing the Chancellor and the Government are concerned not only with technology and with people making the necessary decisions, however, but with the lack of knowledge of so many UK executives of what is going on in the rest of the world. The Government try to help. The Deputy Prime Minister visits various parts of the world, including China, but we are just not coping with the rapid development of so much of the rest of the world.
I take the example of China, which has a rapid rate of expansion of between 8.5 per cent. and 12.5 per cent. We are not establishing ourselves in those markets as we should be. Later, we shall have an opportunity to discuss the Hong Kong situation, which I see is on the Government's agenda. When the Governor of Hong Kong said that when Hong Kong returns to China on 1 July next year, we shall still have responsibility for looking after Hong Kong, he could not have chosen a better way of upsetting Beijing and affecting the Chinese Government's future attitude towards Hong Kong and towards us. That undoubtedly affects our trading arrangements with Hong Kong. As I know from my discussions with officials in Beijing and elsewhere in China, such comments affect where they place their orders.
As I have said before in the House, I established full relations with Beijing and one of the three main purposes was to get trade. We are at the bottom of the trade list compared with all those who followed us, such as Japan, America, Germany and France. Whereas the Japanese trade is more than £30 billion, we are trying hard to reach £3 billion. That is the contrast between those who find out what is required and produce the answer, and those who do not. It is all very well to say that we should encourage trade, but it is also a question of spreading knowledge and showing our industries how they can achieve such results. I am, therefore, grateful to the right hon. Member for Gorton for his speech.
I know that we are getting near the Budget, so I do not expect answers from my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor. However, I point out that he has withstood pressures in making his decision about the bank rate and I hope that he will be absolutely firm in withstanding pressures to reduce direct taxation. From the political point of view, that is not a winner for us, for the simple reason that every Labour and Liberal Democrat candidate, and many others, will say in the constituencies, "You said that last time and what happened?" We do not want to get involved in that argument; I hope that I am being realistic.
There has always been a section of the monetarist wing of the Conservative party which believes that if possible, one should abolish direct taxation altogether and that the whole thing should be done through indirect taxation, whereby everyone, whether wealthy or poor, has to pay taxes. That is not acceptable for me or, I believe, for the party or the country.
The Chancellor and his predecessors have got direct taxation down to a reasonably low level. If we are to persuade people to support our policies, we must show them that we care about the things they care about. It is, of course, right for us to point out, as the Chancellor has done, how much expenditure on the health service has increased, but that does not alter the fact that people want a better health service. The cost of medicine in this country and elsewhere is constantly increasing because of the expertise of those involved in medicine. The more that they can find proper treatment for our citizens, the more the cost will be. What our people want to know is whether we shall give them everything possible in modern treatment. When we can say that that is the case, we shall get support.
The same point applies to education. I must be perfectly honest and say that I am not sure what the position on education is at the moment, anywhere. Parents are equally confused, especially after yesterday's debate. I am not one who puts all my trust in parents' decisions. Some parents
know a great deal about education and what is possible, and they can make a choice for their children, but the majority of parents rely on advice from head teachers and other teachers. That is where we need to improve the situation. Teachers have been knocked about for the past 20 years. That has undermined their confidence and schools are suffering as a result. We must restore confidence to them and let them advise parents on what is best.
I look back to the arrangements made during the second world war by Rab Butler and Chuter Ede, who ran the Ministry of Education together. They had an approach that seemed to be the right one at the time and for some time afterwards. There were three different groups: the grammar schools, which were academic, the technical schools, which prepared students for industry and the rest, and the general, co-educational schools, which looked after other children.
There was meant to be no distinction in standing between those three groups. They were meant to provide what was necessary in education for people with particular requirements. Where it went wrong was that under the Government who were in power until 1951, money was not available--or not provided--for the technical schools to develop. The result was that social divisions were created. There were great jealousies about people going to grammar schools and about others not being able to go to technical schools and having to go to the general schools. That system collapsed.
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