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7.12 pm

Mr. Paddy Tipping (Sherwood): I am grateful for the opportunity to take part in the debate and to follow so many important speeches from hon. Members on both sides of the House. We have heard distinguished comments from former Home Secretaries and a former Minister with responsibility for prisons. I noted their words of caution.

I associate myself with the remarks of the hon. Member for Uxbridge (Sir M. Shersby) and the right hon. Member for City of London and Westminster, South (Mr. Brooke). I am in the same club: I have no particular expertise on the matter but readily recognise the views that they expressed.

I know from Sherwood and from Nottinghamshire that many ordinary people are worried to death about what they perceive to be a relentless increase in crime. In Nottinghamshire crime has risen by 108 per cent. over the past 17 years. During that period the number of uniformed police officers available for duty has risen by just 2.8 per cent.

We had a debate earlier about the effectiveness and value of the police. The fear of crime is sometimes more disabling than the crime itself. That fear, especially among women and the elderly, can be alleviated by the presence of the bobby on the beat. I hope that whatever else may be the result of the Bill and its financial consequences, more money can be made available to put the bobby back on the beat to offer that reassurance.

The incidence of various categories of serious crime has risen in Nottinghamshire over the past decade. The number of cases of attempted murder, conspiracy to murder and incitement to murder stood at 14 in 1985. In 1995 that figure had increased to 106--an increase of about 700 per cent. The number of rapes committed in Nottinghamshire has risen from 33 in 1985 to 122 in 1995--an increase of almost 400 per cent. Drug trafficking offences have gone from 90 in 1985 to 380 in 1995--an increase of more than 400 per cent.

The Home Secretary's prescription is to advocate and impose severe sentences. His argument is that severe sentences act as a deterrent: "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." I am not convinced that that is the total answer. A deterrent has a part to play, but there is more

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evidence that an increased chance of getting caught is linked to a fall in crime. People are deterred not by the sentence that they may face some time in the future, but by the sure knowledge that they will be apprehended.

It grieves me enormously that out of every 50 crimes committed in Nottinghamshire and throughout the country, only one ends in a conviction before the court. That is a criminals charter: a 2 per cent. chance of being convicted. We must do better than that. Before ensuring that people are punished, we must ensure that they are caught.

Alongside the desire to apprehend offenders, other programmes must be put in place. Deterrents and prisons have their place, but so do other measures, such as crime prevention. Local authorities, the police and voluntary organisations should work more closely together to tackle crime. We should work hard on young offenders. It is important to intervene quickly and positively when young people begin to get into trouble, to nip the offending in the bud and get them through the court system as quickly as possible. The juvenile justice system is fractured and needs radical overhaul.

We must tackle drugs. The Bill contains provisions for that, but there are other ways of approaching the problem. I was delighted that the Prime Minister came to Nottinghamshire last Friday to learn about a project called DARE, which is run by Nottinghamshire constabulary in association with Nottinghamshire county council and others. The project works with young people at school from an early age to tackle the pernicious effects of drugs. This is what the Prime Minister said:

"I think that DARE is wonderful. Drugs are very dangerous and people are often led to believe that some soft drugs are not too bad--most people started on something soft. It is important that we learn about drugs and are all able to say no."

He concluded by saying that the project had an important message to give.

So as well as sentencing people who traffic in drugs we need to put in resources lower down the scale. We need to ensure that projects such as DARE, which runs as a pilot scheme in Nottinghamshire, are set up across the country.

I wish to highlight a number of aspects of the Bill. I was interested to note that the Home Secretary spent so much time talking about sexual offences against children, as did the hon. Member for Uxbridge. In this respect the proposals in the Bill are useful and far reaching. Such offenders should go to prison for a long time; more importantly, they should come out on licence subject to proper supervision. The Bill must not stand alone, however. It must operate alongside the Police Bill and any forthcoming legislation on paedophiles. The Bill, with its emphasis on punishment, deterrence and supervised licence, is not enough in itself.

It can be difficult to gain a conviction in a case involving sexual offences against children, because the latter often have to give evidence against the perpetrator, who is often related to them--a father, an uncle or someone else in the family. I hope that the Pigot committee report, which advocates better protection for children giving evidence in court, will be implemented soon.

I also support the excellent work of the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. It does a great deal of work towards the prevention of such crimes

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and the rehabilitation of offenders. The NSPCC could perhaps become involved in after-care and monitoring and in persuading people to avoid these terrible offences. That being so, we must ensure that bodies like the NSPCC are properly resourced to do the job.

This is a very costly Bill. In Committee and, I suspect, in Cabinet tomorrow when spending plans come under scrutiny, comparisons between the expenditure involved in this Bill and other spending priorities will have to be made.

My hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig) mentioned rape, an offence which also features in the Bill. Like him, I am extremely concerned about the harrowing experiences undergone recently by victims of rape in the witness box. There has been talk of early legislation to improve matters. It is quite wrong, once a victim has been through such a wicked ordeal, to subject that victim to cross-examination by the alleged perpetrator for hours and sometimes even days.

My fear is that because the Bill imposes a life sentence for second offenders of this type, more victims will be subjected to such cross-examination. Perhaps we should pause to think about that rather carefully.

Clauses 1 to 3 impose fixed sentences for certain serious violent and sexual offences and for burglaries, all of them on people above 18. I want to press Ministers on this point. Perhaps we should allow an element of discretion when it comes to young people who committed their first offence when under the age of 18. Someone who committed a serious offence at 10 or 11 might then be punished, do his time and make amends--only to reoffend as an adult. As the Bill stands, he would then be given an automatic minimum sentence. Perhaps some sort of discount should be introduced to reflect the fact that the earlier offence was committed by someone who was under age.

At a number of points in clauses 1 to 3, the Bill includes the phrase:

"unless the court is of the opinion that there are exceptional circumstances which justify its not doing so."

I pressed the Home Secretary earlier about that. He offered the example of exceptional circumstances applying when the person in the dock had co-operated with the police in such a way as to lead to the conviction of others. Like other hon. Members, I believe that there is a strong case for giving the courts some discretion, and I hope that the use of "exceptional circumstances" will be explored further. The difficulty of course is that the more they are allowed, the more the tariff becomes inoperable.

Is it right, for instance, that a small-time drug addict who shares drugs with his colleagues and friends should automatically be given a seven-year sentence, alongside a drug baron who directs a big trafficking operation? Equity is at stake here.

Another positive feature of the Bill is that it permits fine defaulters to serve community sentences instead of prison sentences. Such people could get a great deal out of doing supervised work in the community. I hope that this will resolve the problem of people being sent to prison for not paying fines for not having television licences. In 1994 there were 730 such people in prison, of whom 243 were women. It is estimated for 1995 that the figures were again 730 and about 230 respectively. Some of those women live in stricken circumstances with young

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children. It is crazy to lock them up for nine or 10 days--the current mean--for not paying the licence fee. I am therefore delighted by the change proposed in the Bill. It is of course a matter for magistrates courts to deal with, but I know that many magistrates strongly believe that a change was overdue.

What effect will the Bill have on the Prison Service? The service is in significant difficulty. It is confronted with a 13 per cent. budget cut. Some prison governors are running down the use of their prison education departments, and the support available for probation services in prisons is declining. Meanwhile, the number of people in prison is increasing. In 1993, there were 40,000 people; last week, reportedly, there were 57,000. Richard Tilt, Director-General of the Prison Service, suggests that the trend of increase might be 1,000 people per month. He is already talking about time shares and weekend prisons.

The Bill will have far-reaching consequences for the Prison Service--consequences perceived only dimly at the moment. The Bill's financial memorandum says so. The Home Office suggests that there will be 11,000 extra prisoners during a 12-year period as the Bill's effects work through. That alone will create a need for 12 additional prisons, at a cost said to be between £375 million and £435 million--of course, that is the Home Office's assessment of the cost.

I read in detail the White Paper that preceded the Bill, entitled "Protecting the Public", and noted in it a claim that the Bill's deterrent effect would reduce the need for prison places by 20 per cent. I am not convinced that the Bill will have such a strong deterrent effect, and I am anxious about the reduction in remission that is contained in the Bill. The Bill's financial consequences might in fact be far more serious than the financial projections suggest.

I am worried about the consequences of courts reflecting in their sentencing pattern the openness and transparency proposed in the Bill, and that a three-year sentence will in effect become an 18-month sentence. That may be the effect of the present arrangements, but when the public realise it, courts and judges will be strongly criticised in the light of current opinion. It will be very difficult for judges to explain to the public that prison sentences will be cut in half.

I am therefore sceptical that the Bill's effects will match the projections in the financial memorandum. I envisage even more overcrowded prisons, with even greater potential for riots. Most worryingly, I envisage prisons becoming dysfunctional places. People need to be deterred and to be punished, but people also need rehabilitation, and I am extremely concerned that prisons will be unable to perform any of their rehabilitative roles.

Prison building has local effects as well as national ones. A prison is now being built in my constituency. The Lowdham Grange borstal has been knocked to the ground and a new Lowdham Grange category B prison is being built. There is good local understanding of the need for that prison; because there has been a prison establishment on the site before, people have been able to tolerate it. The tradition is there.

I hope that the Home Office will confirm tonight what the Prison Service told me informally--that the new prison will retain the name Her Majesty's prison, Lowdham Grange. There is some anxiety that a new name will be given. Overwhelmingly, people in that part of Nottinghamshire want to stick with the tradition and with the name.

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Although there is understanding about the need for the prison, I am afraid that there is no understanding of some of the consequences. The new owners and their agents have been careful about access to the prison. A scheme was proposed that would stop traffic problems for people who live on Old Epperstone road. I was delighted with the scheme, as were local people. We are amazed that Nottinghamshire county council has unilaterally prevented that scheme from proceeding. The only crumb of comfort is that we now have an assurance from the county council that, if the council's traffic scheme does not work, new additional alternative remedial measures will be taken. I say this in the context of a Bill that argues for 12 extra prisons.

The people of Lowdham, of Nottinghamshire and of the entire country are worried about crime. They believe that something needs to be done. It is important that we tread this path carefully and thoughtfully, and that our work is well researched before we start.

It has been claimed that the Bill is open and transparent. We need to ensure that it can be that, so I hope that we devote time and attention to the Bill and do not rush it for political motives before the general election. This country's strong tradition of balancing the will of Parliament with the need to respect the rights of the courts is the cornerstone of what we stand for. The Bill risks destroying that cornerstone. I hope that the Ministers who have listened to the debate will heed the voices of caution and proceed carefully.

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