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Mr. Wallace: The whole House would share the view that the war against drug traffickers must be pursued relentlessly. If some of the resources that are being devoted to the Bill were applied to keeping open Customs and Excise posts in the most vulnerable parts of Scotland to prevent illegal drugs from being smuggled in, that would be a far more effective way of tackling drug traffickers than some of the measures in the Bill.
Mr. Forsyth: That is a point of view, but it does not absolve the hon. Gentleman of the responsibility that he and the Labour party will have tonight. They will vote against the Bill--against the provisions that will require a minimum sentence of seven years for repeat drug dealers.
Mr. Wallace: They cannot be sentenced until they are caught.
Mr. Forsyth: The hon. Gentleman says that drug dealers cannot be sentenced until they are caught, but he will vote against measures that will impose a severe sentence. As for his point about catching drug dealers, I prefer to take advice from those on the front line--the Customs and Excise officers, who have been remarkably successful. The advice that I have received from Customs and Excise is that it is more effective for them to concentrate their resources on detection, intelligence and surveillance, as that will produce better results.
Customs and Excise has had some spectacular results, and I am guided by it, although I acknowledge the hon. Gentleman's point. It is disgraceful for him to use that argument as a screen for his failure to walk through the Lobby to vote for tougher sentences for repeat dealers in class A drugs.
Mr. Wallace:
Most of the customs officers to whom I have spoken believe that it is essential for them to maintain a presence in the remoter parts of the highlands and islands of Scotland, so that they can gain intelligence in order to catch drug traffickers. The newly appointed chief constable of the Northern constabulary believes that we are opening ourselves up to illegal drug smuggling if we allow those areas not to have a customs presence. What regard does the Secretary of State have for the advice of such people?
Mr. Forsyth:
I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but I must take advice from the senior officials in Customs and Excise, who have been so spectacularly successful and whose responsibility it is to decide how to deploy the resources. They have taken that decision.
The hon. Gentleman would not expect me to say to Customs and Excise, "You're doing a brilliant job dealing with the drug traffickers and drug dealers. You've had some spectacular successes, but the chief constable in the north of Scotland has a different view, so the Government are taking a different view." We should be guided by the people who are charged with those responsibilities, and who have carried them out so successfully.
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May I say to the hon. Gentleman, who represents a fishing constituency, that that is a red herring. He is taking us away from the Bill. Everyone in Orkney and Shetland should know that the hon. Gentleman will go through the Lobby tonight to vote against tougher sentences for drug dealers in Scotland.
Mr. Robert Hughes (Aberdeen, North)
rose--
Mr. Ian Davidson (Glasgow, Govan)
rose--
Mr. Forsyth:
I will give way to the two hon. Gentlemen, but then I must make progress.
Mr. Hughes:
Does the Secretary of State accept that what matters is not only what is in statute, but how statute is applied? Will he comment on the provision of an earlier Bill, which I supported, that allowed the proceeds of drug dealing to be confiscated from high-up drug dealers? How often has that provision been used in Scotland, and what is the value of the assets that have been seized?
Mr. Forsyth:
The hon. Gentleman is quite right. We have provisions to confiscate assets from drug dealers and other serious offenders. Those provisions have been used and I would be happy to give the hon. Gentleman the precise details if he tables a written question. I certainly share his determination that the assets--the ill-gotten gains of drug dealers and others--should be confiscated, but he will know that that is a matter for the courts, and I would be the last person to get involved in criticising the decisions of the judiciary.
It is not only in the case of life prisoners that we want to identify offenders who may pose a continuing threat. We will target resources on those judged a risk, and do our utmost to stop them from reoffending. The hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) was keen to make that point. Clause 3 enables the court to impose a supervised release order of between three months and two years, or one sixth of sentence--
Mr. Brian Wilson (Cunninghame, North):
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Mr. Forsyth:
I have said that I will not give way again.
Mr. Forsyth:
I did, however, say that I would give way to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan.
Mr. Davidson:
Does the Secretary of State accept that tougher sentences for drug dealers take effect only from the date of sentence? In parts of my constituency are dealers who have been charged by the police, yet it takes up to two years before they appear in court to be sentenced. That is demoralising, not only for the police but the local inhabitants, who see dealers being pursued and caught by the police, yet nothing happens and they continue to peddle death from council houses or owner-occupied houses in residential areas. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to speed drug dealing cases through the courts, to ensure that longer sentences are applied more quickly?
Mr. Forsyth:
The first step is not to let them out early--a proposal which the hon. Gentleman will vote
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I accept that the implication of our law and order package is that more people will end up before the courts. The hon. Gentleman is quite right. I share his frustration at the speed with which the legal processes grind on. Some of that is within my area of responsibility; some of it is the responsibility of others. I share his concern that these matters should be addressed, and some of the provisions in the Bill will help that.
Mr. Wilson:
Will the Minister give way on that point?
Mr. Forsyth:
The hon. Gentleman has only just come into the Chamber.
Mr. Wilson:
I shall keep trying.
Mr. Forsyth:
The hon. Gentleman can keep trying, but I shall not give way to him. If he has not the courtesy to be here from the beginning of the debate, I shall certainly not give way.
Mr. Wilson:
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I think that all hon. Members, including the Minister, know that there are other duties in the House that prevent hon. Members from coming in for a few minutes of a debate but where vital constituency interests are at stake. The idea that the Minister should use that as an excuse for not accepting a legitimate intervention seems very poor indeed.
Madam Speaker:
That is not a point of order for me, but the Minister is entitled not to give way. I have to say that he has been enormously generous this afternoon.
Mr. Forsyth:
I am grateful to you, Madam Speaker. If the hon. Gentleman is able to catch your eye, perhaps he will be able to make a contribution. My right hon. Friend will be happy to deal with any points that the hon. Gentleman has to make, but that does mean that the hon. Gentleman will have to remain for the debate.
As I was saying, clause 3 enables the court to impose a supervised release order of between three months and two years, or one sixth of sentence--whichever is greater--on any offender receiving a determinate sentence where it considers it necessary for the protection of the public. Also, unless there are exceptional circumstances, an order will be mandatory for offenders who have been convicted on indictment of a qualifying violent or sexual offence. In relation to sexual offences, courts will have the power to impose an order lasting up to 10 years. That is quite a step forward.
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