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Mr. Wallace: Because it is important.

Sir Hector Monro: Or why should the Liberal party, for that matter, vote against it?

The Bill will bring in automatic life sentences for second-time serious violent and sexual offenders, including, of course, rapists and armed robbers. Why should anyone want to vote against such a proposal? The Bill will ensure that criminals are not released from prison if they remain a danger to the public. Why should anyone want to vote against that? The abolition of early release from prison will help to increase public confidence in the criminal justice system. The Bill will ensure that the sentences served match what the court said and are not reduced after the prisoner has served 50 per cent. of his sentence.

Mr. Maxton: I refer the right hon. Gentleman to the speeches of the right hon. Members for Witney (Mr. Hurd), for Mole Valley (Mr. Baker) and for Fareham (Sir P. Lloyd) last night rehearsing the arguments against mandatory life sentences.

Sir Hector Monro: I thought that my right hon. Friends made excellent speeches. The hon. Gentleman should remember that this is a Parliament and that we are here to discuss issues. Everyone has a right to express his view. My right hon. Friends are perfectly entitled to speak and to give the House the benefit of their experience gained in office, but things have moved on. Crime is a dynamic--it does not stand still. It changes every year, especially where drugs are involved. Every day, we learn new ways to defeat the drugs problem.

Mr. Fabricant: Does my right hon. Friend not think it extraordinary that the Labour party chose not to vote against the Crime (Sentences) Bill yesterday and did not table a reasoned amendment then, but it did so today? Given that the Labour party seems to disagree with the concept of a minimum sentence scheme, does my right hon. Friend think that this exposes a split between the Scottish element of the Labour party and the rest of the party?

Sir Hector Monro: Logic leads one to that assumption. We see Opposition Front Benchers perform U-turns morning, noon and night. They play everything off the cuff and get half of it wrong.

It is disappointing that the hon. Member for Hamilton is to oppose the Bill's provisions to promote the defeat of crime. Clearly, that is something with which we shall have

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to deal in Committee, but I hope that he will adopt a more positive attitude to my right hon. Friend's ideas, so that we can further reduce crime in Scotland.

My right hon. Friend's points on early release follow consultation in the document "Making the Punishment fit the Crime" and the subsequent White Paper. The change in parole is indeed an extension of the present arrangement, because it replaces automatic parole with earned release for good conduct. We must take that seriously and ensure that prisoners make a genuine attempt to face the community that they are to join after they leave prison.

It is right that individuals should be assessed and should not have an automatic time scale for release. It would be good to have the resources and accommodation for phased release or for more places to be available for certain types of offender in open prisons, which are a good stepping stone back into the community. I suspect that the prisoners about whom we are talking would never be granted the privilege of going to an open prison.

I hope that we do not let up on training in prisons. I have seen effective training in painting, carpentry and other trades in the Dumfries young offenders institution.

I know that, like my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Minister of State takes a great interest in post-release supervision arrangements. I hope that he will tell us more tonight about supervised release orders. I am not sure whether such orders will be initiated when a case is heard in court or whether the issue will come up later through the parole board when release is considered.

On automatic sentencing, it is right to impose a mandatory sentence after a second serious sexual offence, while still leaving the court discretion if appropriate. I am not sure that a third offence relating to a class A drug should not be treated in the same way as a second serious sexual offence. The only way to beat the drug problem in Scotland is to be draconian and to make certain that people realise that being caught with drugs means that they are in for a serious sentence.

Mr. Wilson: May I take the right hon. Gentleman back to the argument on sex offenders? Does he appreciate that the problem with the offences alluded to was not that people were released on licence but that they were released under no form of supervision? Does he recognise the argument by women's organisations that, when a recidivist rapist attacks a woman who recognises him, a mandatory life sentence provides an incentive, arguably, for that person to go the whole hog and kill her? That is the argument against mandatory life sentences.

Instead of 17 years of inactivity, would it not have been better to introduce a measure that prevented recidivist rapists from coming out of gaol without being reported to social work departments or to the police, leaving them under no supervision? Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that the rhetoric of leaping from one extreme to the other is not necessarily the cure?

Sir Hector Monro: The hon. Gentleman is making a case that needs careful thought and argument. Before he came into the Chamber, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State explained that there had been a

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discussion with the Lord Advocate today about the case to which he alluded. There seemed to be a prospect of some way forward.

Mr. Michael Forsyth: The key point is that the courts have always been able to require such supervision. We are debating an instruction from Parliament--an instruction that the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) intends to vote against--that the courts should always impose a minimum automatic life sentence in such cases. The difference between that and a mandatory life sentence is that the judge would then set the period to be served.

The argument that there is no incentive not to commit murder is wrong. The judge would set a minimum period to be served in prison, reflecting the seriousness of the offence, but after that the prisoner would be out for the rest of his life on licence because he had a life sentence. The hon. Member for Cunninghame, North is trying to wriggle out of the fact that he is not prepared to vote for a measure that would have provided protection for his constituents.

Sir Hector Monro: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for putting so clearly a point that he also put in his speech. He is absolutely right. The measure may occasionally result in rough justice, but I should be much happier if someone who caused a third serious sexual offence was locked up for life with no argument. The public want that, and the Bill will give them that.

The proposals on electronic monitoring orders are also right. We must prepare the way ahead. I do not understand why the hon. Member for Hamilton opposes the proposals. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has made it clear that they do not apply to those under 16. Once the legislation is in place, we can set up pilot schemes to see how it works. This could be a worthwhile measure, particularly for dealing with the young hooligans who are causing so much mayhem throughout the United Kingdom. We can also learn from experiences in England and Wales.

I read with interest the clause about mentally disordered offenders going directly to hospital. What is the difference between the proposal and the current situation? As my right hon. Friend knows, people are sent to the Crichton Royal hospital in my constituency under order from the courts with the requirement for close supervision. What difference are we introducing on such confinement?

The proposals are important, but relatively modest when one considers the overall picture of crime. I really wonder why the judges are going into orbit. Young advocates, such as the dashing young hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell), are keen to secure maximum sentences when prosecuting, but when they are promoted to become judges they become lenient, liberal and inconsistent. It a strange metamorphosis from advocate to judge. I would expect them to become tougher than the prosecutors.

My right hon. and learned Friend is right to say that the people of Scotland want criminals to get tough sentences and they want those sentences to be carried out. That is the basis of the Bill.

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I am not carried away by statistics, because almost any conclusion can be drawn from the criminal statistics, so many of which are available on Scotland, but I think that the Government's record is good.

Mr. Wallace: Oh!

Sir Hector Monro: I beg your pardon.

The Government's record is good and the statistics are beginning to reflect that. It takes a while to make a sea change in criminal activity. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace) is a great man for sedentary interventions. We have heard all the nonsense that he said about Customs and Excise. He got that totally wrong, and now he is getting criminal statistics totally wrong. Perhaps he could wait and just vote against the Bill this evening to show what the Liberal Democrats really think of it.

I should like to put in a good word for the police, who have to put the legislation into practice. [Hon. Members: "They support the Bill."] The police certainly support what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is doing. My local police force--the smallest in Scotland--has carried out jobs as varied as work relating to the M74 and work in Stranraer on the Irish problem. A small force can maintain good discipline and statistics. I am glad that its crime figures are falling.

I think that the police will be pleased that teenage drinking is to be curtailed. One message which we can send is that future generations must take discipline in the family, from school onwards, more seriously. Although national service was inefficient and unnecessary from the point of view of the Army, it certainly instilled discipline and good manners in many people. Of course, I would never suggest bringing back national service.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has an opportunity, through the Scottish Office block grant, to support voluntary organisations, and they should be given help when it is possible to do so. Many of them do a tremendous amount to help youngsters. I refer to the Army, the Navy and the Air Cadets, in whom my hon. Friend the Member for North Tayside (Mr. Walker) takes such an interest. I also refer to the scouts, the Boys Brigade, the YMCA and the YWCA. All those organisations are helpful in bringing discipline to youngsters who might otherwise indulge in crime and hang around street corners. We should help those organisations whenever possible.

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