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Mr. Wallace: Why will that provision apply only to mainland Scotland? What will be the position on the islands?
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: The islands most certainly will be included, and I give the hon. Gentleman my undertaking on that point.
The hon. Member for Maryhill asked whether research could be conducted on whether women are dealt with more harshly in sentencing than men. I can say only that I very much hope that they are not. Some research has been conducted on this subject, but it has largely been anecdotal. We will consider the hon. Lady's suggestion on that matter.
As for restriction of liberty orders, I greatly enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Davidson) who, in an enlightened way, supported them as well thought out, which they certainly will be. We believe it is right to consult on whether restriction of liberty orders should be available for the under-16s. We intend to pilot the scheme in Scotland, and we need the relevant powers to do so.
The hon. Member for Perth and Kinross asked whether electronic tagging would be used as an alternative to custody, and the answer is that it most certainly will be. The moral justification for tagging is that, along with other disposals that can be of service in the community, it is an additional safeguard for the public. The hon. Lady asked in what circumstances tagging orders would be used. They might be suitable for football hooligans or for those whose offending was associated with their presence at a particular place. They could also be used for those who drink too much and get into trouble as a result, or for those who shoplift.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
I am tempted to give way, but I have many more points to cover. However, I look forward to the hon. Gentleman being a member of the Committee that debates the Bill.
5 Nov 1996 : Column 1135
The cost of tagging will be around £1.5 million over two to three years. We believe that will serve the communities in Scotland very much better than the imprisonment of young persons.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ayr (Mr. Gallie) made some relevant points on the confiscation of alcohol from under-age drinkers. The key matter is that, in framing our proposals, we have paid great attention to the evidence from Ireland. Under the Bill, if a young person passes a bottle to someone over 18, the police will have the power to confiscate it if they have reasonable grounds so to do. That matter is properly covered in the Bill, as it should have been, and we shall have an effective law in place.
I mentioned--
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:
I am tempted to give way, but I must continue.
Some offenders, while fit to stand trial, are mentally disordered at the time of sentencing. We believe it is necessary to provide an additional safeguard for the public so that the court will be able not only to recognise the need for immediate hospital treatment but, in the case of someone who has committed a serious crime amounting almost to murder, to specify a custodial sentence. My right hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) mentioned that important point.
As for automatic life sentences, it was interesting that the hon. Member for Hamilton did not say that he would support or oppose our proposals. We are not sitting on the fence. I refer to the poll undertaken by the Daily Record, not a newspaper known for supporting the Conservatives. No less than 93 per cent. of the respondents supported honesty in sentencing. Those of us who were concerned, distressed and angered by the Maguire case believe that the provisions are necessary. The hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) is welcome to vote with us if he wants effective action to prevent that situation from occurring again.
I should also make it clear that we want automatic sentences of not less than seven years for repeat drug offences. Anyone convicted for the third time of a class A drug trafficking offence will receive a minimum sentence of seven years. That is absolutely necessary.
The hon. Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Connarty) asked how often the proceeds of drug deals have been confiscated. I am glad to be able to report that, in the three years from 1993 to 1995, a total of 15 orders were made, with assets amounting to £539,221 being confiscated. In 1996, there have been five orders, with assets of £494,000 being confiscated. We are determined to leave no stone unturned to ensure that that continues.
It is necessary to provide sufficient places in prisons, either through the private finance initiative or through public expenditure. A range of effective programmes must be put in place to train those in prisons, such as
5 Nov 1996 : Column 1136
We are increasing sentencing powers. The sentencing powers of sheriff courts will increase from three years to five years in solemn cases. The Lord Advocate is to be given the right of appeal against a decision not to impose an automatic life sentence, a minimum sentence for drug trafficking, a supervised release order or a hospital order. That provides additional protection for the public.
Electronic "livescan" fingerprinting is an exciting provision of great importance. It is much easier to take one photographic image than to go through the laborious process of pressing each finger on to a pad. The system also produces a higher-quality print. The exciting aspect of the system for the fight against crime is that it allows the police to check instantly whether a suspect detained in a police station is using a false name or is the subject of an outstanding warrant. I strongly commend clause 42 to the House; it will greatly assist the police in the battle against crime.
The Bill will be welcomed by all who believe in the rule of law. It is time to redress the imbalance that has grown between those who have to keep the law and those who break it. The recent tide of public opinion makes it clear that that imbalance will not be tolerated. We are alive to the wishes of the public and have listened to them. It is the duty of a democratic Government to respond effectively.
We are committed to firm action. The fact that even the Opposition admit that people are demanding firm action imposes a duty on us to meet those wishes. When the hon. Member for Hamilton accuses us of vote-catching and populism, he means that our proposals command general support in the country.
As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said, the Opposition's claim to be tough on crime is laughable. They have voted consistently over the years against countless law and order measures, from the prevention of terrorism Act to the police powers of search for offensive weapons. Whatever the partisan quibbling over the Bill, the reality is that the Opposition are seeking to defeat legislation that will bring fast and effective redress to many victims and potential victims of crime, as well as bringing proper retribution to their criminal tormentors. The people of Scotland will not readily forgive those who seek to obstruct reforms that they urgently desire.
We shall build a country that is safe, a country where people do not need to walk the streets in fear, a country where victims of crime will see that justice is done, a country where our people have confidence in the criminal justice system. That is our unshakeable resolve. I hope and believe that we can count on the support of all hon. Members who subscribe to that goal.
Above all, our policy is driven by an absolute resolve that the public of Scotland and of Britain should be properly protected. We shall put in place all necessary measures to ensure that. I challenge the hon. Member for Hamilton--[Hon. Members: "Oh!"]--to come off the fence and say as soon as possible whether he will support us on minimum sentences for those who commit murder and for repeat sex crime offenders.
5 Nov 1996 : Column 1137
I am grateful for having had the opportunity to sum up the debate. I commend the Bill most strongly to the House.
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 267, Noes 288.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
5 Nov 1996 : Column 1141
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Mrs Irene
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham
Alton, David
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Ashdown, Paddy
Ashton, Joseph
Austin-Walker, John
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, Mrs Margaret
Beith, A J
Bell, Stuart
Benn, Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blunkett, David
Boateng, Paul
Bradley, Keith
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E)
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Byers, Stephen
Caborn, Richard
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Canavan, Dennis
Cann, Jamie
Chidgey, David
Chisholm, Malcolm
Church, Ms Judith
Clapham, Michael
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Ms Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cummings, John
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try SE)
Cunningham, Ms R (Perth Kinross)
Dafis, Cynog
Darling, Alistair
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C)
Davies, Chris (Littleborough)
Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Denham, John
Dewar, Donald
Dixon, Don
Donohoe, Brian H
Dowd, Jim
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eastham, Ken
Etherington, Bill
Evans, John (St Helens N)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foulkes, George
Fraser, John
Fyfe, Mrs Maria
Galbraith, Sam
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
Garrett, John
George, Bruce
Gerrard, Neil
Gilbert, Dr John
Godman, Dr Norman A
Godsiff, Roger
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Ms Mildred
Graham, Thomas
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Gunnell, John
Hain, Peter
Hall, Mike
Hanson, David
Harvey, Nick
Hattersley, Roy
Henderson, Doug
Heppell, John
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Ms Margaret
Hoey, Miss Kate
Hogg, Norman (Cumbernauld)
Home Robertson, John
Hood, Jimmy
Hoon, Geoffrey
Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hoyle, Doug
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Robert (Ab'd'n N)
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Hutton, John
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Adam
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampst'd)
Jackson, Mrs Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Janner, Greville
Jenkins, Brian D (SE Staffs)
Jones, Barry (Alyn & D'side)
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)
Jones, Dr L (B'ham Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd SW)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Jowell, Ms Tessa
Kaufman, Gerald
Keen, Alan
Kennedy, Charles (Ross C & S)
Kennedy, Mrs Jane (Broadgreen)
Khabra, Piara S
Kilfoyle, Peter
Kirkwood, Archy
Lestor, Miss Joan (Eccles)
Lewis, Terry
Liddell, Mrs Helen
Litherland, Robert
Livingstone, Ken
Lloyd, Tony (Stretf'd)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Lynne, Ms Liz
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
McCartney, Ian (Makerf'ld)
Macdonald, Calum
McFall, John
McKelvey, William
Mackinlay, Andrew
McLeish, Henry
McNamara, Kevin
MacShane, Denis
McWilliam, John
Madden, Max
Maddock, Mrs Diana
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mandelson, Peter
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, John
Meacher, Michael
Meale, Alan
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)
Milburn, Alan
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Morgan, Rhodri
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Alfred (Wy'nshawe)
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Paul
Nicholson, Miss Emma (W Devon)
Oakes, Gordon
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Brien, William (Normanton)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Orme, Stanley
Parry, Robert
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Pope, Greg
Powell, Sir Raymond (Ogmore)
Prentice, Mrs B (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Primarolo, Ms Dawn
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Ms Joyce
Radice, Giles
Randall, Stuart
Raynsford, Nick
Reid, Dr John
Rendel, David
Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rogers, Allan
Rooker, Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Salmond, Alex
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Robert
Shore, Peter
Short, Ms Clare
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Chris (Islington S)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Snape, Peter
Soley, Clive
Spearing, Nigel
Spellar, John
Squire, Ms R (Dunfermline W)
Steel, Sir David
Steinberg, Gerry
Stevenson, George
Stott, Roger
Strang, Dr Gavin
Straw, Jack
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Thurnham, Peter
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis
Wallace, James
Wareing, Robert N
Watson, Mike
Welsh, Andrew
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Wilson, Brian
Winnick, David
Wise, Mrs Audrey
Worthington, Tony
Wray, Jimmy
Wright, Dr Tony
Young, David (Bolton SE)
Mr. Jon Owen Jones and
Ms Angela Eagle.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Aitken, Jonathan
Alison, Michael (Selby)
Allason, Rupert (Torbay)
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashby, David
Atkins, Robert
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Beggs, Roy
Bellingham, Henry
Bendall, Vivian
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, John
Body, Sir Richard
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bowis, John
Boyson, Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Peter
Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, John (Luton N)
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Channon, Paul
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Churchill, Mr
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Sir John
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina
Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dicks, Terry
Dorrell, Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Dykes, Hugh
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Sir Peter
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Fowler, Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Sir Peter
Gale, Roger
Gallie, Phil
Gardiner, Sir George
Garel-Jones, Tristan
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodlad, Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gorst, Sir John
Grant, Sir Anthony (SW Cambs)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Grylls, Sir Michael
Gummer, John
Hague, William
Hamilton, Sir Archibald
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hanley, Jeremy
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Hayes, Jerry
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, David
Hendry, Charles
Heseltine, Michael
Hicks, Sir Robert
Higgins, Sir Terence
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)
Hogg, Douglas (Grantham)
Horam, John
Hordern, Sir Peter
Howard, Michael
Howell, David (Guildf'd)
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Douglas
Jack, Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Herts)
Jopling, Michael
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Key, Robert
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Knox, Sir David
Kynoch, George
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamont, Norman
Lang, Ian
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Leigh, Edward
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Peter
Lloyd, Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, John
MacKay, Andrew
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Madel, Sir David
Maitland, Lady Olga
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Mates, Michael
Merchant, Piers
Mills, Iain
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Moate, Sir Roger
Monro, Sir Hector
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Needham, Richard
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Sir Cranley
Oppenheim, Phillip
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Patten, John
Pattie, Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Porter, David
Portillo, Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Redwood, John
Renton, Tim
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rowe, Andrew
Rumbold, Dame Angela
Sackville, Tom
Scott, Sir Nicholas
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shephard, Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)
Sims, Sir Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)
Soames, Nicholas
Speed, Sir Keith
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Streeter, Gary
Sumberg, David
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John D (Strangf'd)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Townend, John (Bridlington)
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Tracey, Richard
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Viggers, Peter
Waldegrave, William
Walden, George
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Whitney, Ray
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Miss Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesf'ld)
Wolfson, Mark
Yeo, Tim
Young, Sir George
Mr. Timothy Wood and
Mr. Bowen Wells.
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