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Mr. Simon Coombs: Is it the Government's intention that planning site visits should be open to parish councillors to put their points of view while district councillors are visiting particular areas within the parish?
Mr. Curry: Under the consultation proposals, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State intends that parishes should participate fully in planning procedures by means of a voluntary arrangement with the planning authorities. We will consider guidance that will help that process, and if the voluntary system were to fail and people did not apply it with good will, my right hon. Friend would necessarily have to consider using his powers to move towards a more mandatory system. Our intention is that people make a habit of working sensibly together on planning, which is likely to be the most sensitive issue.
Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman: As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State observed earlier--I was not able to intervene in his speech--the problem is that councils such as Lancashire county council totally ignore parish councils. They consult, but they write the parishes' opinions off. Councils in Garstang and Catterall, which have strong views, are totally disregarded by Lancashire county council.
Mr. Curry: The Bill contains powers to formalise, if necessary, the consultations that are required. We hope that that will not be necessary, and that the Bill will be sufficient to make it clear to local authorities that we expect pragmatic action.
Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman: The councils will ignore it.
Mr. Curry: If they choose to ignore the Bill, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will have the remedies to ensure that it does not continue to be ignored. I am sure that he would not hesitate to use those powers.
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The electoral cycle for parishes--the unitary districts--will fall into place once the unitary councils have been established. The normal electoral cycles will come into sync, and I will give the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel) details in due course.
Mr. Rendel:
Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Curry:
I will send details to the hon. Gentleman. I have allowed many interventions, and I have four minutes left to get through three quarters of the Bill, so I hope he will excuse me.
I do not wish to return to site value rating. We mentioned it last week, and the hon. Gentleman's hon. Friend the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Jones) cringed visibly. That system considers the development potential and values a site at that potential. It does mean that a village bank and Dorothy's olde tea shoppe next door would pay the same rates and that the latter would suffer as a consequence. The system that the hon. Member for Newbury described is the existing rating system, and he should consider what he means by the policy that his party is supposed to endorse.
There are real dilemmas in the countryside, which none of us can avoid. Planning is difficult, because the countryside is under pressure. People want to preserve it as it is, but the household growth figures will cause real, unavoidable dilemmas. Education will also produce dilemmas. We must not assume that a village school is excellent merely because it is a village school. Many are, but there is a trade-off between the intimacy and community of a village school and the facilities of a slightly larger school. That is self-evident. Access is also not an obvious issue.
Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman:
Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Curry:
If my hon. Friend will permit me to say so, she has had one bite at the cherry already.
In my constituency, in the three peaks area, access is wearing the footpaths away, and hardcore has to be helicoptered in to reinforce them. The situation with the use of green lanes by four-wheel drive vehicles is even worse. The green lanes spread and death traps are created, in winter conditions, for livestock.
It is true to say that there is not a single countryside--there are hundreds of countrysides in the United Kingdom; there are half a dozen in my constituency. The difference between the vale of York and Upper Wharfedale is enormous. The Pennine dales, the constituency of the hon. Member for North-West Durham (Ms Armstrong), the maritime constituencies of the south-west and the home county constituencies are different in their working patterns, the social mix, the relationship between rural areas and the towns, and transport characteristics.
It is important to observe that diversity. We must not fall into the trap of talking about diversity between urban and rural areas as if there were no diversity within each or, indeed, within shorter distances.
I sometimes felt that the countryside that the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras described was a sort of Tolkienesque fairy story peopled with demons of his own creation. The real countryside is not uniformly rich
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We must create a living countryside in which people want to live, where they can earn a decent livelihood and take part in decent recreation. The Bill is designed to deliver that. The need is there, the Government have addressed it, and we shall deliver the results. I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee, pursuant to Standing Order No. 61 (Committal of Bills).
Queen's Recommendation having been signified--
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 50A(1)(a),
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 50A(1)(a),
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(6) (Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation).
6 Nov 1996 : Column 1336
Ordered,
Mr. Andrew Welsh (Angus, East):
I fully support the petition on the future of services at Arbroath infirmary in the names of Neil Thomson, Yvonne Cargill and Des Nicoll on behalf of the 8,500 citizens of Arbroath and district who signed their names in support, who demand a better deal for the hospital, and improvements across the range of service provision for the largest population centre in Angus:
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Local Government and Rating Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of--
(a) any expenses of the Secretary of State incurred in consequence of that Act; and
(b) any increase attributable to that Act in the sums payable out of money so provided under any other enactment.--Mr. Anthony Coombs.]
[WAYS AND MEANS]
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Local Government and Rating Bill, it is expedient to authorise any increase in the sums payable into the Consolidated Fund resulting from the imposition of liability for non-domestic rates on the Crown.--[Mr. Anthony Coombs.]
Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 101(6) (Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation).
That the Special Grant Report (No. 22) (House of Commons Paper No. 16), a copy of which was laid before this House on 23rd October, be approved.
Question agreed to.
That the draft Open-Ended Investment Companies (Investment Companies with Variable Capital) Regulations 1996, which were laid before this House on 17th July, in the last Session of Parliament, be approved.--[Mr. Anthony Coombs.]
Question agreed to.
That the Scottish Grand Committee shall meet at half-past Ten o'clock:
1 in the County Buildings, Cupar, on Monday 25th November to consider a substantive motion for the adjournment of the Committee;
2 in Scotland on Monday 9th December to consider a substantive motion for the adjournment of the Committee;
3 at Westminster on Wednesday 11th December;
4 in the City Chambers, Edinburgh, on Monday 13th January to take Questions for oral answer and to consider a substantive motion for the adjournment of the Committee;
5 in Scotland on Monday 3rd February to consider a substantive motion for the adjournment of the Committee; and
6 in Scotland on Monday 17th February to take Questions for oral answer and to consider a substantive motion for the adjournment of the Committee.--[Mr. Anthony Coombes.]
10 pm
To the House of Commons the Petition of residents of Arbroath declares that the maximum level of hospital services for Angus should be provided locally.
I wish to submit the petition for the people of Arbroath.
The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Secretary of State for Scotland to ensure that an end is brought to the cutbacks and downgrading of services at Arbroath Infirmary so that Arbroath Infirmary and Stracathro can jointly provide major hospital services for Angus until the new Angus District General Hospital is built as a matter of urgency.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
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