---

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

Pakistan

23. Mr. Ainger: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what support his Department has given to Pakistan in the past two financial years.[1326]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Dr. Liam Fox): Total bilateral aid to Pakistan, through the Overseas Development Administration, amounted to £28.11 million in 1994-95 and £31.5 million in 1995-96.

Mr. Ainger: Does the Minister agree that the dismissal of any democratically elected Government is a cause for concern? Can he assure the House that he will impress on the Pakistani high commissioner and representatives of the interim Government that they should honour the undertaking that there will be free elections in Pakistan on 3 February? Will he at the same time also raise the concerns of many hon. Members and of those who represent human rights organisations about the reputation that Pakistan has gained in recent years for serious abuses of human rights?

Dr. Fox: I have recently returned from Pakistan, where those very representations about human rights were made extremely clearly on more than one occasion. We believe that the President acted within his constitutional rights. There have been severe accusations made against Mrs. Bhutto's Government in regard to extrajudicial killings and corruption, and we believe that they should be thoroughly investigated. We will encourage the caretaker Government to do everything that they can within their constitutional remit.

Lady Olga Maitland: May I congratulate my hon. Friend on the support that the Government have been giving to Pakistan with its social action programme, especially with regard to literacy schemes for young girls and family planning for married women? I hope that my hon. Friend will confirm that the Government will continue to give that support. I understand that they have in mind a figure of about £30 million over the next five years.

Dr. Fox: It is extremely important that the Pakistani Government's social action programme is given full support, given the support to women and to girls' education that it gives in that particular climate. My hon. Friend will be pleased to know that I signed £4.3 million-worth of ODA aid for the Sindh education project, which was designed especially for the education of girls. That is something on which the Government should be congratulated.

11 Nov 1996 : Column 13

Developing Countries (Wages)

24. Mr. William O'Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assistance Her Majesty's Government have provided to encourage employers in developing countries which export food and goods to the United Kingdom to pay wages at levels which would help to eradicate poverty; and if he will make a statement.[1328]

Dr. Liam Fox: The best way of improving working conditions and raising wage rates is through economic development. The Government are working to promote this through our aid programme.

Mr. O'Brien: Does the Minister agree that wage rates in the developing world are shockingly low? Does he accept that we in the industrial world should do all in our power to increase those rates to help people out of absolute poverty? Does he support Christian Aid's campaign to change the rules to encourage consumers to shop in stores that apply an ethical policy, so as to help people in the developing world improve conditions and circumstances in their own countries?

Dr. Fox: The hon. Gentleman raises three important points. Ethical shopping is an important part of a free market. I am glad that the Labour party has had a late conversion to that. Good consumer education is extremely important, but it is up to consumers to make a choice; it is not for some central organisation to impose that choice upon them.

One of the main things we can do to reduce poverty is to open up our markets to developing countries. This country has been at the forefront of that.

We should distinguish between extreme abuses of human rights in the labour market and low rates of pay. We, as a Government and as a nation, have always been against exploitation in the labour market. We believe that the International Labour Organisation is the body to monitor that.

Mr. Wilkinson: I appreciate my hon. Friend's comments about the necessity for the United Kingdom to open its markets to the primary produce of developing countries. Would not that be the most effective way of improving living standards, not least for employees on the land in those countries? If that policy is to be properly effective, should not the United Kingdom lead a withdrawal from the common agricultural policy, which militates directly against the food produced in developing countries by imposing barriers throughout Europe?

Dr. Fox: The Government will push for more open markets at the World Trade Organisation summit in Singapore, because that is exactly what we want. We genuinely believe that people in developing countries should be given access to markets, so we should be at the forefront and be giving a lead.

We must continue to examine agricultural subsidies. My hon. Friend is correct in that those subsidies disadvantage developing markets. We have a moral duty to ensure that we do not impose conditions on those markets that make it impossible for them to develop.

Miss Emma Nicholson: If the Minister really believes what he has just said about the morality of those

11 Nov 1996 : Column 14

employing people in the developing nations, why do not the British Government support, instead of block, the additional optional protocol to the United Nations declaration on the rights of the child, which was highlighted today by UNICEF in its report on the effects of war on children? It shows that the armed forces in every nation in the world are the largest employers of children of 15 and 16.

Dr. Fox: I would have thought the hon. Lady to be the last person to lecture me or anyone else on Conservative Benches about standing up and saying what we believe in. When we say something, at least we stick by it, and we stick by what is in our election addresses.

Zaire

25. Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans the Government have to send emergency aid to Zaire.[1330]

27. Mr. Callaghan: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what actions he is planning to take in response to the current humanitarian crisis in eastern Zaire; and if he will make a statement.[1332]

Dr. Liam Fox: Regional political and security problems are at the root of the crisis in eastern Zaire. Britain is working urgently with regional leaders, the United Nations, European Union partners and British non-governmental organisations to support a ceasefire, and to allow the substantial relief stocks already available in the region to be delivered to those in need. I would have thought that that was of interest to the House.

Mr. Cunningham: I am sure that the House welcomes the fact that humanitarian aid is beginning to get through to the refugees in Zaire. However, do the Government intend to press for the international tribunal to consider the cases of the perpetrators of genocide? Can the Minister give us more detail about whom that aid is going to?

Dr. Fox: Late this morning, the first convey got through to Goma. Perhaps it would help the hon. Gentleman and the House if I explained briefly the aims of the Government's policy. A central part of our policy must be the voluntary repatriation of Rwandan refugees. We must work with Governments in the region, not attempt to impose a settlement. If an intervention force is required, we believe that it would be preferable if it were organised under the auspices of the United Nations. We wonder about the time scale, because there is a humanitarian crisis. We will have more information this evening when we get reports from the non-governmental organisations that are in Goma. The lack of information is hampering our ability to make plans at the moment.

Mr. Callaghan: I thank the Minister for the reply that he gave my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South-East (Mr. Cunningham). Does he not agree, however, that any future aid must be given to the civilian population and not to armed gangs? Will he make inquiries, with the United Nations and others on the African continent, to ensure that the aid goes to genuine refugees rather than those armed gangs?

Dr. Fox: It is absolutely correct that our aim must be to direct the aid in the way that the hon. Gentleman

11 Nov 1996 : Column 15

suggests, but the practicalities cause us problems. I do not think that any hon. Member would disagree with the aim of the policy, but how we implement it is a different matter. I had discussions with the President of Tanzania today about that very question. It is a vexed question, because the one thing that we do not want to do is return to the status quo ante--the position before the crisis began. That is what we must try to avoid.

Sir John Stanley: Has the Department already introduced a full package of emergency measures, with both a Government component and a component involving relevant British NGOs to the maximum extent, so that, once the security position permits it, the most effective and maximum possible British response can be made?

Dr. Fox: Indeed. We have given more than £130 million bilaterally since 1993, and more through the European Union. It is important to point out, however, that this is not a cheque-writing exercise. About two months' food for about 1.5 million people is currently being stockpiled in Tanzania and Uganda. It is not a matter of getting enough aid there; it is a matter of getting the aid that we currently have in the region to the refugees themselves.

The position is complicated by the fact that the refugees are scattered--we are not entirely sure where they all are--and by the fact that seven disparate groups are currently fighting. It is not as if we were negotiating with one group, and it is not as if the refugees were in one place. First, we must get our refugees to a safe place; then we must find ways of getting the aid that is already there to those people. It is a logistical problem.

Sir Peter Emery: Will my hon. Friend ensure that, if we accede to any request from the United Nations for the use of a military force to enable the provision of aid, it is clearly understood before we do so what the objective of that force will be, what its command structure will be and, indeed, what time scale will be involved in its commitment? Without that, the exercise will be disastrous.

Dr. Fox: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. We must have clear, achievable objectives; we must have a clear mandate; we must have a clear time scale; and we must have a clear exit strategy. [Interruption.] I hear it said that we have had lots of time to think about it. It is sad that some politicians, and some newspapers, have been painting a terribly simplistic picture of what is in fact a very difficult problem. Not everything that we face can be in black and white: sometimes, in the real world, grown-ups must deal with grey areas that are not as simple as they look.

Ms Short rose--

Hon. Members: Hear, hear.

Ms Short: Thank you for that.

Does the Minister agree that it is essential that we take urgent action in Zaire, but also that we learn from the terrible mistakes that the world community has made over the past two years? Does he agree that our first mistake was our failure to intervene to prevent the genocide,

11 Nov 1996 : Column 16

which would surely have been cheaper than all the humanitarian aid that has flowed since? The second major mistake was to allow the perpetrators of the genocide to control access to humanitarian aid.

Does the Minister agree that we now have three objectives--first, to send food directly to the refugees and exclude the armed militia from the process; secondly, to bring the refugees home to Rwanda--

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. David Davis): He has said all that.

Ms Short: The Minister has not said all that. This is an important matter, not a matter for heckling.

Secondly, we must bring the refugees home to Rwanda, and provide enough human rights monitors to protect them and give them confidence so that they can return home. Thirdly, we must begin the war crimes trials, so that those who organised the genocide are punished. Does the Minister agree that UN forces are needed only to secure those three objectives, and not for any other purpose?

Dr. Fox: I welcome the hon. Lady to her position. Her debut is even later than mine. I have nothing particular to add to what I have already said about the Government's objectives except that--and this echoes what the hon. Lady said--we must try to gain the confidence of the Rwandan refugees to go back. Improving that confidence requires action by the Rwandan Government, and part of that is a belief that those who perpetrated the genocide will be brought to justice.

Mr. Key: Will my hon. Friend resist calls for military intervention and do all that he can to ensure that if military force is necessary it comes from the African continent and that it is, probably, led by the best-equipped and trained army on that continent, that of South Africa? Will he resist to the last calls for British troops to fight their way in and fight their way out?

Dr. Fox: On one side the Government are confronted by those who say, "Whatever you do, you must send troops in quickly for humanitarian reasons." On the other side are those who say, "We must not ever send troops in under any circumstances." A military intervention force would be justified if we believed that it could do a specific job. If we think that that can be done safely, taking into account the security of our armed forces, and that there is an ability to deal successfully with this humanitarian crisis, it must be right, if we can do something, to do it.

---