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Mr. Kilfoyle: The hon. Gentleman has quoted my hon. Friend the Member for Eccles (Miss Lestor), but he has done so selectively. What about the case of Rikki Neave, who knew nothing but brutality in his short life? If he had not died in such a dreadful way, he would undoubtedly have been one of the recipients of the sort of punishment that the hon. Gentleman is advocating. That child would have known only violence. Is it any surprise that such children end up as violent parents?
Mr. Dunn: I do not deny that children who are abused become abusers. I am merely saying that those of us who support the view--
Mr. Dunn: If the hon. Lady will contain herself, I shall tell her.
Those of my hon. Friends who share my view say that corporal punishment--the cane--should be available to the head. It is for the head to make a judgment in the context of the case that is before him. Let the punishment fit the crime, as the Gilbert and Sullivan refrain goes.
I move on to clauses 3 to 5, which deal with the extension of grant-maintained powers. There is no doubt that grant-maintained schools and the policy behind them have been an outstanding success. I know that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Kilfoyle) has visited my constituency from time to time to see the marvellous work that is being done in the area. We have nine grant-maintained schools, four grammar schools, some excellent high schools, a city technology college and an excellent 11-to-18 years of age comprehensive school. Dartford probably has a range, variety and choice of schools that is second to none throughout the country.
Under the Labour party's policies, that range, variety and choice would go. The Labour party says that we cannot have selection by interview or examination, but if schools cease to adopt that approach, they will become comprehensive. The Labour party has said that it will close the city technology college. We are told that grant-maintained status would be abolished. Accordingly, schools would revert to local education authority control. The prospect for my constituents is the onslaught of the comprehensive system, which we have fought against for so many years.
There is a particular feature of the grant-maintained system that I find especially attractive. I am surprised that Labour democrats do not. It is that parents vote for or against the grant-maintained system. There are examples where the vote has gone against even when it might have been in the interests of the schools involved to become grant-maintained. Whatever the outcome, where parents have voted we have seen a new dynamism established.
There is no doubt that in Kent the local education authority has had to work extremely hard to put itself in some sort of shape following the opting out of so many
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If, however, the policies of Labour Members were enacted, no parent would have the right, opportunity or freedom to exercise choice, unless they were very wealthy. The majority would be stuck with the comprehensive neighbourhood scheme, which we in Kent have fought against throughout our lives.
We heard from the hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett) that he supported some aspects of the Bill, which he welcomed, as did the hon. Member for Bath. I have been in the House a long time--since 1979, but not long enough--and I remember that Labour voted against the Education Act 1979, the Education Act 1980, the Education Reform Act 1988--a massive measure, excellently taken through the House by me and others--the Education (Student Loans) Act 1990, the Further and Higher Education Act 1992, the Education Act 1993, the Education Act 1994, the Nursery Education and Grant-Maintained Schools Act 1986, and so on. Labour MPs are consistent in advancing a cosmetic theory in public: "Yes, we stand for parental rights and freedom of choice," but in truth when the issue comes along they are prepared to vote it down time and again.
Mr. Robert N. Wareing (Liverpool, West Derby):
Before I read the Education Bill, I was under the distinct impression that dinosaurs were extinct. I feel very much the same as my hon. Friend the Member for Eccles (Miss Lestor), in that I never thought, when I entered the House of Commons, that I would ever be faced with a renewal of the argument over selection.
Frankly, selection is not efficient for children's education, and if the Prime Minister thinks for one moment that it will be popular, he is sadly mistaken. It will be grossly unpopular, unless, of course--and this is always a possibility--grammar schools, as was the case when we had the 11-plus examination, contain fee-paying classes. Ten years ago, it might have been astonishing to think that anybody would suggest bringing back selection. If, by some misfortune, the Government were to be in power for another Parliament, I should not be surprised to see the reintroduction of prep school class forms 1 and 2, with fee payers entering the school. After all, through the ages, many Conservative Members have sent their sons and daughters to comprehensive schools. Many children of Conservative Members, past and present, were sent to comprehensive schools such as Eton and Harrow. So there is always a way out for them if their children do not pass the 11-plus examination.
I have my own experience of the 11-plus examination. Unlike the hon. Member for Dartford (Mr. Dunn), I passed the 11-plus. He failed--and it shows--but I was
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That opportunity should have been open to all. Conservative Members fail to understand that children's educational development operates at different rates. Although a child's aptitude can be determined at the age of 11, his or her ability cannot be determined, bearing in mind the fact that, in two or three years' time, he or she might be assigned to what were secondary modern schools. If the Government's intentions to create more grammar schools are fulfilled, more and more of our children with no choice will be assigned to the equivalent of the old secondary modern schools.
What does selection mean in practice? It does not mean a society that is at ease with itself. It creates division among neighbours. I can remember when I passed the 11-plus, and children who had gone through primary classes together were divided. The point has already been made about the division that the 11-plus created within families, but it is worth repeating. Imagine it if one youngster in a family was successful in passing the 11-plus and then went to the grammar school, but a couple of years later the second child took the examination and failed. Many of our children were told at the age of 11 that they had no real ability.
The Conservative Government are keen on league tables. Frankly, if there were a league table for the Conservative Government's performance, they would just about be relegated to the Vauxhall Conference. But, of course, league tables will encourage something that already existed at the time of the 11-plus examination. Division took place not at 11-plus, but at seven-plus. When youngsters went from the infants' classes into the junior school, they were quickly segregated into an A and a B class. I was fortunate, as I went into an A class, so every Friday morning we would have tests that were based on the previous junior scholarship examination. That happened year after year from the age of seven.
The absurd suggestion has been made that there should be formal segregation at the primary stage. That will come in any case if the intentions in the Bill are realised. There is no plan for the number of grammar schools. All we are told by the Secretary of State is that any school can decide, although it was rather noticeable that when I questioned her and asked whether that meant that parents would be balloted, she did not answer. She merely said that each school would determine. How many grammar schools will there be in London; how many in Liverpool--fortunately for our Scottish friends, Glasgow is exempt from this--how many in Manchester; how many in Canterbury; how many in Oxford and so on? In the past, the proportion of children who gained a grammar school place differed from one part of the country to another. In Wales in the 1940s and early 1950s, 66 per cent. of children went to grammar schools.
Mr. Win Griffiths (Bridgend):
That is how I got into grammar school.
Mr. Wareing:
I am glad that my hon. Friend was successful. I am sure that even if he had lived in Liverpool, where the proportion was only 7 per cent., he would still have qualified, because his intelligence shows.
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Segregation will also apply to teaching staff. Teachers will want to teach in grammar schools, where the children's motivation is likely to be better than that of children at secondary modern schools, many of whom will feel that they have been discarded at a young age.
There are alternatives. Conservative Members sometimes argue that it is necessary to push the brightest children. That can be and is being done in the comprehensive system. There are arguments against streaming, but nevertheless streaming occurs. There are sets in the comprehensive system. Indeed, at Alsop high school in Liverpool, which I attended, we had sets. A person could be in a lower set for chemistry and physics, and in a higher one for French and Spanish. The important thing was that the children were part of one community. We must not have elitism in our education system.
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