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Sir Dudley Smith (Warwick and Leamington): The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that I stand by my remarks. He does not have to rely simply on my opinion. A recent edition of The Scotsman newspaper contained an expose of Hamilton and described how he deluded the police time and again. It concluded that the police were lax and negligent in their actions and it drew disturbing parallels with Ryan and Hungerford. It was an in-depth newspaper article that demonstrated great veracity.
Mr. Straw: I suggest that the hon. Gentleman reads the Cullen report rather than The Scotsman. The newspaper article was completely wrong and at variance with Lord Cullen's conclusions. I am interested to hear that the hon. Gentleman--I gave him notice of my intention to raise the matter--does not resile from his attack on the police. In time, we shall remind him and some of his colleagues of their irresponsible behaviour in that regard.
Such attacks on the police demonstrate a significant ignorance of how the present controls work. The police do an excellent job controlling firearms, but they are severely hampered by a licensing system that, in practice, is stacked in favour of the applicant. The hon. Gentleman must consider that point. The changes in the Bill are welcome, but they do not go far enough and we shall seek to strengthen them in Committee.
No system of controls, however tough, can guarantee that there will never again be a Dunblane or a Hungerford. However, we know now that more effective controls would almost certainly have saved the lives of 34 innocent children and adults who were massacred in those two peaceful towns--and perhaps the lives of many others also. We owe it to those who were killed at the hands of those lawfully licensed gunmen to put effective controls in place. We must stop the creeping gun culture that is scarring our society.
This Bill is a welcome beginning, but I fervently hope that it will be greatly strengthened before it emerges from Committee and, above all, that the House will decide that handguns for general civilian use have no place in our society.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
All Back-Bench speeches are now restricted to 10 minutes, with the exception of the contribution by the Liberal Democrat spokesman.
Sir Jerry Wiggin (Weston-super-Mare):
I beg to move, To leave out from "That" to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:
I am vice chairman of the British Shooting Sports Council and member of the council of the National Rifle Association--sadly, neither post is paid. I assure the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw), who quoted the views of the Sportsman's Association, that we dissociate ourselves from that statement and those of other organisations which lie outside our curtilage. We have sought to behave entirely responsibly and have employed professional advisers of the highest standard. I hope that the hon. Gentleman's accusations will not be levelled at the British Shooting Sports Council, which does not relish the description "gun lobby". We represent shooting rights in the same way as other legal and above-board organisations represent their members' rights.
I recognise the difficulties facing my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary in many areas, not least as a result of the difficult events that have transpired since Dunblane. I believe that an acceptable solution would have been to adopt Lord Cullen's recommendations. Therefore, I have no difficulty with the amendment which states that that is how the Government should proceed. The Government appointed Lord Cullen to do more than simply investigate the events at Dunblane school: they spread wide his remit to include advice on firearms and firearms regulation and licensing. Those who are interested in the sport of shooting took a great deal of trouble to place our evidence before Lord Cullen. He was receptive to our views and asked us to return to clarify detailed points. I believe that it is an error not to adopt his recommendations, as he considered the matter so very carefully.
My right hon. and learned Friend referred to the report of the Forensic Science Service. Although I was assured that the report would be put in the Library last Thursday, owing to some confusion within the Department it arrived only this morning. When I have studied it, I may raise further points about that advice.
It is clear that in rejecting Lord Cullen's main recommendations the Government have their own agenda. I share the view that the Bill's objective should be to prevent an incident such as that at Dunblane from occurring again. I am sorry to inform the House, however, that I am far from convinced that the Bill will have that effect. Those of us who witnessed the passage of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 said at the time that it would not prevent another disaster. It is almost impossible to legislate against lunatics. That problem is not confined to this country--someone tried to gas people on the Japanese underground recently and there was a flamethrower attack on a school in Northern Ireland. There are an endless number of maniacs who seek to kill people by one means or another.
In our case, the press--as is their wont--decided that someone or something must be to blame. A concerted campaign was organised in several national newspapers the day after the Dunblane incident. It grew in depth and intensity and stirred up emotions, not just in Scotland but across the length and breadth of the land, in a manner which did not reflect the views in my postbag. I have talked to many colleagues who do not see evidence of the
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It was not long before Labour Members pricked up their ears. It is extraordinary that the hon. Member for Blackburn should urge us not to play party politics with such emotional matters when he produced lengthy evidence for the Cullen inquiry completely out of the blue. How is the Labour party expert on any aspect of the events at Dunblane?
Mr. Salmond:
The hon. Gentleman may not be aware of it, but the Home Secretary invited me and Labour representatives to submit evidence to the Cullen inquiry.
Sir Jerry Wiggin:
That does not make such evidence any more relevant. I do not agree that there was consultation on the issue within the Labour party, as I know that those Labour Members who are sympathetic to shooting interests were not invited to give their views. Events progressed to the point where, as my right hon. and learned Friend pointed out, the Leader of the Opposition announced--long before Lord Cullen reported--that it was Labour policy to ban all handguns.
Unfortunately, the Government followed suit. There was no consultation with the Firearms Consultative Committee, which is now a marginalised organisation. It has been told that other recommendations which might have assisted in improving gun safety will not be included in the Bill.
I had hoped that the Opposition would adopt a sensible view regarding compensation. There is no precedent for legislation of this sort, which wipes out a section of a sporting community, affecting equipment, ranges and manufacturers. It is a new concept, so it is no wonder that there is no precedent for compensation. I know that my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary will listen with a sympathetic ear. Although the small improvement in compensation that he announced today is very welcome, it does not go far enough in compensating the hundreds of people who will lose their jobs, for the many thousands of pounds in personal investments that will be lost, or for the misery that will be caused to law-abiding, innocent people who today operate a sensible business which will be outlawed tomorrow. I should add that there is no apparent appeals procedure, where the quantum or nature of compensation could be taken to a higher authority. I hope that that, too, will be part of my right hon. and learned Friend's consideration.
I agree with the comments made about the way in which 50-plus police forces all have a different method of administration. Of course they cannot work together, and for that reason, several years ago we suggested that there should be a national firearms administrative board, staffed by firearms experts, on a national basis, which would produce a national standard and a national register. Those were sensible, commonsense suggestions, but they were turned down by the Home Office.
There are many Committee points that I would like to make, but there is little time today. We were very pleased to learn that muzzle-loaders are to be exempt. I cannot understand why it was even considered that they should be included. The concession on heritage firearms is welcome. There are many other matters: for example, how long will it take to alter club security? What standards will be required?
12 Nov 1996 : Column 2026.2 pm
"this House declines to give a Second Reading to a Bill which includes provisions outlawing the possession of handguns which, without evidence, go beyond the recommendations of the public inquiry conducted by Lord Cullen into the shootings at the Dunblane primary school on 13th March 1996."
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I am pleased to move the amendment standing in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr. Biffen). He apologises for his absence this afternoon, which I attribute to the rapid progress of the legislation and an important previous engagement.
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