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6.11 pm
Mr. Sam Galbraith (Strathkelvin and Bearsden): I have a particular interest in the Bill in that Thomas Hamilton ran a boys club in my constituency, which met on the Monday night before the massacre on the Wednesday. As a result, I was one of only two Members of Parliament who gave evidence to the Cullen inquiry. In addition, I have a professional interest in airguns which, if there is time, I shall mention briefly at the end.
Lord Cullen's inquiry was an analysis of what happened. He teased out events and then accepted various bits of evidence, from which he came to opinions and conclusions. They are just that. They are not absolute truths. There is nothing inherent in the report that the House must accept absolutely. The final judgment on the matter must be made by the House after assessing all the information. We are helped by Lord Cullen's inquiry, but we are not bound by it.
The hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare(Sir J. Wiggin) said that it is impossible to legislate against lunatics. I accept that. We can never absolutely rule out a recurrence of such an event, but we can try to reduce the possibility and potential of such events recurring. That is the basis of the matter.
The hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare also suggested that somehow or other this is all a press campaign. That is not my impression. I come from Scotland and perhaps the mood there is very different, but I do not believe that. The slaughter of innocents is not a matter which stops at national boundaries. There is an aghast perception against it throughout the country. It is certainly my belief that this matter touches all of us throughout the country, no matter where we come from.
When discussing firearms, we have to realise that the evidence one way or another is not absolute. We should be careful how we handle the information. I think that the argument has been made that it is all about legally and illegally held handguns and that most crime is related to illegally held handguns. There are two separate issues here. There is the normal day-to-day crime, which is committed with or without illegally held handguns, but we are concerned with the one-off, occasional massacres, the mass murders, which are a different issue. The relationship of legal handguns to illegal handguns is therefore not necessarily relevant. I should point out, however, that there is no evidence whatever that crime is committed solely, or even in the majority of cases, with illegally held handguns. The Select Committee examined that matter, and the glaring fact is that there is no statistical basis for that.
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Another argument is the comparison between various countries and the relationship between guns and crime: more guns in the United States, more crime; fewer guns in this country, less crime. I caution everyone against such comparisons. We all know that various countries do not fit into this picture. The factors involved in different countries can vary in terms of density of population, climate, or whatever, so it is difficult to draw conclusions. We have to conclude that, so far as the evidence and statistical facts are concerned, positive proof one way or another is not within our grasp and never will be. We simply have to make a judgment on what we have before us.
Another point that is regularly made is that if the regulations were tightened and new ones applied we could prevent a recurrence of these events. There is some force and judgment in that. The regulations could be improved. I should like to see the Select Committee's recommendation implemented--that a person applying for a licence for a firearm should have the medical information that he or she supplies verified by his or her general practitioner. That does not mean that the GP should say whether the person is suitable for a firearms certificate, just that the evidence given is correct. That would be a step forward. I also support the proposal that the onus should be on the individual to give good reason why he or she should continue.
Even if all those regulations were in place, at the end of the day we still could not guarantee that it would prevent a recurrence of these events. The regulations are implemented by individuals, who are fallible. No matter how tight we make them, these are individual judgments, and mistakes will always be made. I have therefore reached the conclusion that the only way to deal with the issue is to reduce the number of handguns and weapons in our society.
I think that it was the hon. Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow) who asked the Home Secretary how many lives would be saved. That information will never be available to us. The numbers are small, but we could never reach a conclusion on that. All that we can say is that, by reducing the number of guns, it is likely that the number of such events in future will be reduced. I accept that going the whole hog and even removing .22 calibre rifles is an infringement of the civil liberties and rights of some individuals. The House should not remove those liberties lightly. It is important to remember that, as was expressed by the Home Secretary and by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw), from time to time the House has to make a balanced judgment and decision. That is our job. Finally, we shall have to do it. That is one of the duties of the House. Sometimes, in the national interest and in the interests of the majority of people, we have to remove rights from others. I make the judgment, which I stand by, that in this case it is necessary to do that.
I am disappointed that airguns are not mentioned in the Bill. I hope that we shall be able to discuss airguns in Committee. I have professional experience of looking after patients who have been injured by airguns: two of them died as a result of their injuries. I have seen the devastation that an airgun pellet causes when fired through the eye socket into the brain. We have no information about the number of airguns held, and the police take the view that airguns would be difficult to
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Events in Dunblane are seared on the memories of all hon. Members on both sides of the House, without exception. We owe it to those who died at Dunblane and to their parents to ensure that the legislation is right. I and others have been accused of being too emotional. I do not know how a person can be too emotional on this matter. Emotions play a part in our relationships with others. The well accepted philosophical view is that moral relationships are, in part, bound by emotions, and our emotions decide what is right and what is wrong. My view is that it is right for us to ban all handguns and I ask the House to accept that view.
Mr. Robert Banks:
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You will be aware that the crucial argument in the debate is whether handguns should be banned or whether, as an alternative, they should be dismantled. The Cullen report came down heavily in favour of their being dismantled: one part going to the owner, the other part to a gun club. The Forensic Science Service, to which the Home Secretary referred--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. I hope that the hon. Member is going to ask me to rule on this matter in my role as Deputy Speaker and not from my knowledge of firearms.
Mr. Banks:
When the Home Secretary gave his reasons for making his decision, he undertook to ensure that the evidence was available in the Library. I have just been to the Library and the evidence is not there. We are therefore undertaking a debate without the evidence relating to the core of the Bill.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. That is a matter for debate. I imagine that the Government Front Bench heard the hon. Member.
Mr. Howard:
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I agreed to a suggestion made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Sir C. Onslow) that the document should be placed in the Library. I was given to understand that it was now in the Library. If that is not an accurate understanding, I shall ensure that it is placed there without further delay.
Mr. Michael Jopling (Westmorland and Lonsdale):
I hope that those interventions will not come out of my 10 minutes.
I shall begin by making two points. First, I have been the holder of a firearms certificate for many years. I have two handguns: they are first world war trophies which belonged to my father. They were dismantled at the police's request, and the parts are kept in separate places. I have never fired them: I cannot remember firing a pistol in my life. I am not a member of a gun club, and I cannot remember visiting one. Secondly, I yield to no one in my absolute horror at the tragedy in Dunblane. There will not be anyone in the House who does not share that view.
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I am always concerned when a media-led campaign produces yet again an over-hasty, knee-jerk reaction from the Government. We have seen that too often over the years on both sides of the House. I thought that the Government had learnt their lesson. I hope that the Home Secretary has seriously taken on board Conservative Members' less than supportive reaction to the proposals.
It is right to have strict gun controls. The House knows about my interest in the United States. I have publicly criticised its gun laws, which are hopelessly lax. If anyone wants an argument against having a written constitution, that is one of the strong cases to use. I would not argue for a moment that we must not call in many of the handguns in circulation.
I welcome the relaxation proposals for heritage weapons which my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary announced earlier. We shall hear more details later. I hope that the Minister will be kind enough to explain the position of museums of historic weaponry. I spent Saturday afternoon in the Royal Armouries museum in Leeds, which is one of the world's great exhibitions of armoury. I hope that there is nothing in the Bill that will reduce that wonderful museum.
My main concern is about the effect of the Bill on gun clubs. I have great sympathy with early-day motion 136 in the name of the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell), which is very much on the lines that I want to pursue. I am especially concerned about the effect of the Bill on the perfectly legitimate sport of pistol shooting.
The Government have resisted pressure to ban all gun club sports--I commend them for that. I could not disagree more with the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw), who spoke in favour of a total ban. No adequate reasons have been given for an upper .22 limit on handguns that are properly controlled, and that are used by responsible people in shooting clubs.
The message that comes from the Conservative Benches is that shooting sport is not disreputable. It is pursued almost entirely by thoroughly admirable people. Many people learn to use pistols during their professional lives in the armed services or in the police. When people retire from those services, there is no good reason why they should not be allowed to continue to improve their skills and to pursue a sport that, after all, as many hon. Members have said, is an Olympic sport. I cannot understand why those people should be treated as pariahs under this legislation.
It is hard to imagine a more sensible and responsible group of people than those of my constituents who approached me on this matter. They are thoroughly decent people. I guess that all hon. Members would find it difficult to argue with that view, because almost everyone in the House has been approached by members of gun clubs. I do not believe that they should be deprived of their sport of firing higher-calibre handguns just because of an isolated, appalling incident.
The police force was grossly negligent. I heard what the hon. Member for Blackburn said, but he cannot let the police off the hook. A senior police officer had to resign as a consequence of their failure to prevent the dreadful man Hamilton from obtaining a licence. I should have thought that that resignation was sufficient condemnation of the police in Scotland who were involved in this case.
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I am especially concerned about people who run gun clubs. I want to read a letter that I did not expect to receive from people whom I cannot remember meeting--I shall not give their names. They live in Sedbergh in my constituency, and their case is probably typical of others up and down the country.
6.22 pm
"My husband and myself are hard working, law abiding citizens who have never been a drain on the NHS or DSS or out of work. Although not well paid we are self sufficient--do not cause a nuisance to anyone and respect other people's rights.
I believe that that sums up what is in the minds of many hon. Members. I welcome my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary's announcement of an extension to cover equipment in the money motion, but it does not go far enough. If we are determined to clobber the shooting fraternity--I hope that we are not--we really must compensate them properly.
Several years ago the opportunity arose to convert a remote quarry to a shooting range for full bore pistol. After several years of physical and financial labour the range met all required specifications laid down and a club was formed and since that date the membership has grown steadily with a wide range of people harmlessly enjoying their sport. Members include police, professional, business, working class--with a fair proportion of family memberships--parents and juniors who have learned to respect the gun and use it safely.
Now all our hard work and years of pleasure are to cease. Tens of thousands of innocent, law abiding citizens are being persecuted although they have committed no crime."
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