House of Commons Hansard Debates for 12 Nov 1996 (pt 21)

6.44 pm

Sir Cranley Onslow (Woking): The headquarters of target shooting in Britain are at Bisley in my constituency. I have been involved with shooting ever since I was elected to the House. I have been a co-opted member of the National Rifle Association council for 30 years. I do not own--and it is a long time since I have shot with--either a revolver or a pistol, but I have many friends and constituents who do. Many of them will be adversely affected by the Bill.

Having said that, I still assert that every member of the shooting community in Britain was just as appalled and shocked by the Dunblane tragedy as the rest of nation. I resent the implication that sometimes arises in discussion that that is not so.

What happened at Dunblane exposed serious deficiencies in the present law and in its enforcement, and the need for fresh legislation, but we all need to recognise that, if we are to legislate, we should not do so under any illusions. No Bill can undo what happened at Dunblane, wreak revenge on the man Hamilton or guarantee that mass murder will not occur again by some other means. One has to consider only the Oklahoma tragedy to recognise what can be done with materials that are easily available for public purchase.

Any Bill that we consider must be thought through properly and framed carefully. I am sorry to have to say to my hon. Friend the Minister of State that the Home Office does not seem to have persuaded Britain as a whole that the legislation is as carefully framed as it should be. Certainly, it has not persuaded the shooting community, which generally supports the recommendations of Lord Cullen's excellent report, but which in many cases is not persuaded that the Government's solution of going beyond Cullen is justified.

My hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate (Mr. Banks) has just handed me the letter from the Forensic Science Service, on which the Government appear to rely in going beyond Cullen. Although the limitations of time do not make it possible for me to read it out, I hope that hon. Members will read it. I should be surprised if they thought that it is very adequate in what it says.

My right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary upset people in the way that he handled the matter. I do not understand why he did not keep his undertaking to

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consult the Firearms Consultative Committee before coming to the House with legislation, particularly in relation to Lord Cullen's preferred option not to ban larger-calibre pistols and revolvers, but to require them to be dismantled when stored. That refusal has led to much suspicion, which was not necessary and which needs to be ironed out in full debate. There has been no proper test of the practicality of Lord Cullen's option and many people remain convinced that it is a workable solution that would save bureaucracy and public expense.

I hope that the Home Secretary will understand that he does not carry full conviction on his decision and that the owners of guns that are to be banned have some justification in thinking that they are being used as scapegoats, which is unfortunate. They are overwhelmingly decent, law-abiding citizens, as many hon. Members have said. Their sport has been legitimate and is internationally recognised as such. If they are to be deprived of it, after the Bill has had full consideration in the House, it is obviously equitable that they should have full and proper compensation.

I welcome the Government's decision to withdraw the money resolution that they originally tabled. I shall reserve judgment on compensation until I see what form the fresh money resolution takes. Although we have been encouraged to believe that it might deal with the vexed questions of historic guns and antique guns and weapons, what is to be the position with regard to collections of guns? How are they to be valued? How, in particular, is the very important matter of loss of livelihood to be treated under the new money resolution?

I received a letter today from a constituent who works as a gunsmith. He started 20 years ago as an apprentice and is now a partner in the business, which stands to be ruined by the Bill. Surely he must be entitled to proper compensation, as must all others in the same position. It is monstrous that, simply because there are restrictions on public expenditure, the House should consider allowing such people to be victimised and penalised in the way that is likely to happen under the Bill. After all, it was not the owners of pistols and revolvers who allowed Hamilton to hold and use his guns, so they should not bear the brunt of the penalty.

I am satisfied to some extent by what my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary said. He has undertaken to produce amendments and his concession on compensation is something that the House should welcome. However, matters have not yet reached the position where I would feel disposed to support the Bill. Indeed, if the money resolution had not been withdrawn for amendment, I should most certainly have voted against it.

6.50 pm

Mr. Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby): I welcome the Bill as a further strengthening of the firearms legislation. However, we could achieve the objective that we all have in common--to control access to handguns, to ensure that a repetition of Dunblane is not possible and to make it impossible for people to have complete handguns outside licensed and controlled premises--by the much simpler proposal of requiring dismantling of guns.

I tabled an amendment that was not selected. My early-day motion 136 fits in with the reasoned amendment moved by the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare

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(Sir J. Wiggin), which is a more bland and statesmanlike version of my proposal. Everybody has in common the aim of taking guns off the streets, preventing them from being available outside licensed premises and making another Dunblane impossible. We can make it impossible to have complete guns outside licensed premises by requiring guns to be dismantled. In other words, part of the gun--presumably the heavier part--would be kept at the gun club under security, while the other, lighter and more portable part could be taken home by the gun owner. If that were to be the basic approach in our legislation, it would be cheaper, safer and less draconian than a ban, whether complete or partial, such as the Government are proposing.

I am making my suggestion out of rational motives. I am not a gun enthusiast; indeed, I do not like guns. I am not persuaded by the arguments that the gun lobby has put before us. I am not part of the gun lobby. I do not like speaking for anyone else. That is a problem I often have in politics because I rather like to put my own point of view. I have reached my point of view by reading the evidence, reading the Cullen report and reading the Government's reply. I hope that I am suggesting a rational approach. I believe that it is the most direct and effective route to securing what we all want.

This is an emotive issue. We pass the worst legislation when we rush into it under the influence of strong emotion. We must stop and think. So far, the Government have taken a rational approach by appointing Lord Cullen to carry out a full inquiry. That was very sensible. Indeed, if there had been such an approach after Hungerford, Dunblane might never have happened. There are the beginnings of a rational approach and we must see where that takes us.

In paragraph 9.106 of his report, Lord Cullen said:

"I am satisfied that of all the measures which stop short of a ban the one that is open to the least objection on the ground of practicability is the temporary dismantling of the self-loading pistols and revolvers by the removal of major components . . . It has the merit that it does not require clubs to accommodate the handguns, with the various accommodation and security problems which I have already mentioned. In each case the component which is removed could be kept by a club official or on the club premises, where there was adequate space and security for the purpose, while the remainder of the handgun would be kept by the shooter at home."

Lord Cullen repeats that recommendation in paragraph 9.112.

The Government should consider that approach to see whether it would fulfil their objective. However, there is no evidence that the Government have considered that approach with the same open-mindedness shown by Lord Cullen. Instead, they have concentrated on refuting another of Lord Cullen's suggestions--that there should be barrel blocks. They said that that would be impossible and it probably would be. However, they have ignored the most serious and important recommendation of dismantling.

The Government said in their reply that dismantling was not a practical proposition for some types of handgun. I am no expert; I do not know guns. However, people who do know guns tell me that it is possible to dismantle95 per cent. of handguns. Indeed, handguns must be dismantled for cleaning. The Government could then ban any handguns that could not be dismantled. That would be an easy way round the problem. I do not understand why the Government did not adequately consider that proposal.

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The Home Secretary said this afternoon that frequent dismantling could affect weapons through wear and tear, making them less reliable and less accurate. People interested in shooting would not buy guns that became less accurate over a period. The guns must be dismantled for cleaning. It is not a complicated, technical operation requiring the attendance of a specialist.