House of Commons Hansard Debates for 12 Nov 1996 (pt 25)

7.46 pm

Mr. Terry Lewis (Worsley): I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire) and I share some of his emotions--I, too, am a parent who has lost a child--but I depart from many of his arguments because I do not believe that the debate is all about Dunblane: it is also about the control of guns in society in general.

My hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) referred to my Adjournment debate on 3 May 1995, in which I raised the issue of gun control and the keeping of weapons on domestic premises. What my hon. Friend did not know is that for some time before that I had made representations to successive Home Secretaries, through correspondence and orally, on the same issue. I came to the conclusion that gun control was needed because of local incidents. On many occasions over the past two years in and around my constituency, people have lost their lives at the end of legally held firearms. Some irresponsible shooters in my area have advertised the fact that they kept weapons on domestic premises. On more than one occasion, those weapons have been stolen by the criminal fraternity and good people have died.

In May 1995, I made four simple demands. One was that the storage of handguns of any kind on domestic premises should be banned. I also argued that there was a need for a national firearms index, which would track every firearm wherever it was moved legally within the country. I said that details would have to be kept on the police computer. I also demanded strict psychological testing. I must again mention the people who claim to be responsible shooters, yet who cannot keep their mouths shut about where and why they have weapons and what they are supposed to do with them. I further suggested exemplary sentences for people who merely possess illegal weapons, let alone those who use them.

I believe that that debate was fairly constructive, but the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Maclean), who was the responsible Minister at the time and who is in his place today, argued vociferously against my suggestions. I do not want to score points in such a debate, but I wish that the Government had moved then, rather than 16 young lives--and the lives of many adults throughout the country--later. They are several lives too late.

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The Dunblane tragedy moved us all. It moved many Members of Parliament on from having zero interest in weapons control, firearms et alia, and it moved me on from my four basic demands. I now support a complete ban on the ownership of handguns.

I have spoken to shooters and non-shooters alike, and in my opinion there is no reason not to include .22 rimfire pistols. That seems to be the division between the Government Front Bench and the rest of us. I do not believe that the handgun ban will drive the shooters to buy .22s. Many shooters are saying that it will signal the demise of .22 pistols in any event.

The Liberal spokesman, the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Wallace), used the word "dishonesty" to describe the Government's approach to that part of the ban, and he was right. It would be dishonest to ban handguns but leave .22s in the possession of shooters, knowing full well--or at least having a good idea--that the final result was likely to be a de facto ban on .22s with no compensation payable. I should like the Minister to dwell on that thought.

We must now turn our attention to replica guns and deactivated weapons. Many of my contacts in the police tell me that the deactivated weapons market is growing all the time. Weapons are obtained legally in a deactivated form, but I understand that no very detailed expertise is required to reactivate them. There are many people with service experience who can easily do the job.

We cannot leave the debate without talking about shotguns. As one or two Members have already said, we must make a serious attempt to remove shotguns--at least from urban areas, for a start. My hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin) emphasised that. I recognise the utility of shotguns for certain categories of people, but I do not believe that there should be multiple ownership of shotguns on one licence. The position should be strictly controlled, with one shotgun to one licence.

As for the shooters who have lobbied us, many arguments have been advanced by Conservative Members about what law-abiding and upright citizens they are. No doubt some are. I have seen shooters at my advice bureau and received letters and phone calls from shooters. I even met some who were lobbying Parliament today. Many of them conduct themselves with respect and dignity and argue their case sensibly and without rancour, but there is a vituperative majority--and to say that they are fit to own even a pea-shooter would stretch my generosity.

Finally, I shall address the canard that most of the responsible shooters use: that guns do not kill people--people kill people. The truth is that people too often use guns to kill people. Fewer guns in society will result in fewer tragedies.

7.55 pm

Mr. John Carlisle (Luton, North): I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire) is still in his place as I have listened to his speeches over many years and I thought that his contribution this evening was admirable, sensible, calm and reasoned. It touched the emotions and hearts of many people here, and I think that it will do the same for those outside. I shall say a few words about the Dunblane parents later, but I must say at the outset that my hon. Friend spoke with great sense and reason. The whole House should be grateful to him.

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I feel that on this subject my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench have got it wrong. Their intentions have encountered an enormous amount of opposition both outside this place and, as they will have heard, from the Conservative Benches--although a muted response from the Opposition.

The description "knee-jerk legislation" must be applied. When Cullen finally reported, the Home Secretary said that the response would be held back until after the party conferences--a deal that was undone by the Labour party. Then there was a knee-jerk response. At 3.30 there were statements, which were not available to Members until that moment, and by 3.31 the Home Secretary had announced that there would be legislation.

One of the tragedies is that there has been no time to discuss legislation in a reasoned and honest way--almost until today, although the subject was touched on in the debate on the Queen's Speech. Had my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Government not only heard what our colleagues have said this evening, and will presumably continue to say, but seen the welter of correspondence and realised the good sense of those who have written, they might have changed their ideas.

The problem was that the Government gave the impression that all would be well, but that nothing should be said until Cullen had reported. Many of the shooting lobbies took the same view. Yet as soon as Cullen reported, legislation was bounced upon the House. I regret that, because if the intended legislation is passed we shall all have become victims of the sins of one awful man, which will affect many thousands of innocent citizens.

Perhaps the Bill should be renamed the Firearms (Confiscation) Bill, because of the remarkable fact that the Government intend to confiscate legitimately held private property--property that in many cases has been held for scores of years. Their action will risk the livelihoods of many thousands of people and put many legitimate business people out of business and into poverty.

The tragedy of the legislation is, I regret to say, that it will do nothing to prevent a similar event from occurring again. During his visit to Dunblane, the Prime Minister said:

"You cannot legislate against this sort of incident."

He was absolutely right. That is why we must ask the questions.

Why have the Government chosen to go beyond Cullen? Cullen sat for six weeks, heard comprehensive evidence and spent about £1 million collecting that evidence. No one begrudges that money, but having established some sensible reasoned arguments, the Government then abandoned the crux of the argument--regrettably, for some kind of political reason. Why have we not accepted the lessons of the past? Why do we not remember what a farce the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 has become because, like the measures passed in 1988 following Hungerford, it was rushed legislation? Why have this Government, of all Governments, given in to the various pressures of blackmail and emotion that have been heaped on all of us who are involved in this argument, and why have they listened to those arguments instead of the arguments of reason?

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Obviously, most of us support Lord Cullen's very sensible recommendations.