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8.39 pm
Mr. Donald Anderson (Swansea, East): There are two separate issues before the House this evening: first, the appropriate rules for gun ownership in response to the massacre of innocents at Dunblane--I, with some hesitation, am prepared to accept a complete ban--and, secondly, the issue of compensation. I shall devote my speech to the latter issue.
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I shall use a constituency example to illustrate the hardship that the Bill is likely to cause unless there is a more generous financial resolution. I shall then set out the principles of law that I believe are applicable in this case and argue that Parliament must be seen to respond in a fair and a democratic manner.
Obviously, shooting centres are likely to be affected most by the legislation. The largest commercial shooting range in Wales, Shooters of Swansea, is located in my constituency. It opened five years ago and is owned by Mr. Adrian Morris and his family. The range was built with the encouragement of the local authority, Swansea city council, which provided the site and the infrastructure, and it was supported by the Sports Council for Wales.
It is a family-run business, with personal guarantees from the family, who invested substantial sums. The family have no other business interests and there is no alternative use for the building. The Government's proposals would remove more than 80 per cent. of turnover, making the business not commercially viable--in effect, the family would face certain ruin. All machinery and special equipment would be made redundant and their livelihood destroyed. In pursuing a deemed public interest, does the Home Office see no obligation to protect people such as the Morris family in my constituency? They are the innocent victims of a measure that has been advanced for the public good.
I hope that the Home Office will consider seriously certain propositions of law when determining the extent of the compensation proposals. If it adopts a minimalist position, it will certainly face legal challenge. A state must ensure that its domestic law conforms with accepted legal obligations; so what key principles are relevant and should guide legislation in this case? The first is the principle of equality.
Where possible, our legislation should comply with the principle of equal treatment under the law. That principle finds expression in several cases, both domestic and European--notably in the skimmed milk powder case that was reported in 1977 in European Court Report 1311. The argument, if applied to the Bill, is that to compensate only the owners of firearms would offend the principle of equality of treatment in circumstances where others who suffered a direct loss from the ban were not so compensated also.
In terms of human rights, it may be argued that not to compensate certain categories of those who suffer loss would be a violation of their fundamental human rights, partly because it deprives them of a property right and partly because it infringes the right to free pursuit of an economic activity. The 1974 case of Nold v. Commission, European Court Reports 491, is relevant here. It would be a violation of those principles if vested rights were interfered with without compensation--although I accept that the damage alleged must be "a sufficiently direct consequence" of the act.
Mr. Robert Banks (Harrogate):
There are occasions when legislation comes before the House and I am uncertain about whether it will achieve its stated objectives. On other occasions--such as this--I have a gut feeling that we are dealing with a problem in entirely the wrong way.
All hon. Members are united in their grief over the tragedy at Dunblane. We also recognise that, whatever measures are implemented, no one can guarantee 100 per cent. that the Dunblane tragedy will not be repeated in one form or another, involving guns or other deadly methods. We are dealing with maniacs--they are always lurking somewhere in society--but we must do what we can to tighten the regulations and avoid a recurrence of the Thomas Hamilton episode.
We all recognise that gun clubs throughout the country are run responsibly; their members are responsible people. A great strength of this country is the way in which those with common interests band together to form organisations and committees, with a chairman, perhaps a president, a secretary and a treasurer. Such groups are the backbone of this country: they are well organised and they take their responsibilities very seriously. The same is true of gun clubs, and we should acknowledge that fact.
This country's marksmen and their achievements often go unrecognised. League tables showing the total number of medals won in shooting events at the Olympic games
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The core debate in this afternoon's deliberations is whether a ban or dismantlement of weapons would be the best and the right thing to do. The Cullen report takes some seven pages to express the advice that Lord Cullen took from firearms experts, dealers and people involved in the industry. He concluded that, short of a ban, he would recommend the dismantlement of weapons, and for those that cannot be dismantled he would recommend the fitting of a barrel blocking device. That goes without question. It is comprehensively explained and understood in the report.
The Government's response was that they
I am convinced that the Bill has been prepared, in a sense, as a response to press comment and to the emotion that has been stoked up by hon. Members on both sides of the House, and it is unwise to proceed down the road that has been determined. The 40,000 weapons that would be left in the hands of individuals would have to be stored in clubs, which are primarily in areas away from habitation, in isolated parts of the countryside, by and large, in old gravel pits or wherever. In order for the weapons to be stored in a gun club, the gun clubs would have to ensure that they have reinforced walls, safes, strong perimeter fences, burglar alarms, access control, including metal detectors, and regular and stringent inspection arrangements. The cost would be so prohibitive that I do not believe that gun clubs could survive.
I do not believe that it would be sensible to provide for a great arsenal of stored weapons, however secure they may appear to be, when the club is probably used only once or twice a week or at the weekends. Such arsenals would be an open invitation to burglars, if they were inclined to obtain weapons in that way.
proportionality between the means employed and the aim sought to be realised . . . the notion of the 'fair balance' that must be struck between the demands of the general interest of the community and the requirements of the protection of the individual's fundamental rights. The requisite balance will not be found if the person concerned has had to bear 'an unconditional and excessive burden'.
Those principles are essentially enshrined in European Community law and in human rights legislation and conventions, but many of them owe their origins to related common law principles. I hope that the Home Office will consider those principles seriously, as they should be a guide to the compensation provisions in the Bill. I do not suggest that ignoring such principles would necessarily provide a remedy in law, but I hope that Ministers will examine them and be sufficiently troubled by them to modify their response.
Clearly compensation terms are material to the assessment as to whether a fair balance has been struck between the various interests at stake and notably, whether or not a disproportionate burden has been imposed on the person who has been deprived of his possessions.
The Court further accepts that the taking of property without payment of an amount reasonably related to its value would normally constitute a disproportionate interference which could not be considered justifiable under Article 1."
"were not convinced that a barrel block or similar device could not be removed by a determined individual and the Government does not therefore believe that it could rely on such a measure. It is also not certain that the removal of key components for the types of weapons where this is appropriate would be practical."
That flies entirely in the face of the Cullen report. It is based on the evidence of the Forensic Science Service. Its report is a letter, of about a page and a quarter in length. It deals with a number of issues about shotguns that are not relevant to the issue, and it is signed by one person, Mr. Warlow. That is the only evidence that the Government have taken on board to contravene the evidence that the Cullen report has provided. I do not think that that is satisfactory. The amendment speaks of the lack of evidence. The evidence from which I have just quoted became available only during the course of the debate, although it was issued on 16 October.
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