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The Minister of State, Home Office (Miss Ann Widdecombe): The debate and the Bill have their roots in the tragedy of Dunblane. The tone of the debate and the nature of most of the contributions have made it a constructive discussion. I can guarantee that, although the Government will not be able to accept all the suggestions made tonight, every contribution will be carefully studied and assessed, to guide our thinking during the passage of the Bill.
In a debate to which many distinguished contributions have been made, hon. Members on both sides of the House were moved and impressed by the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire). It was a very thoughtful and moving speech, which endeavoured to address an extremely difficult subject with good sense and mildness in the face of the emotion generated.
The hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) talked about the collision of two rights--the right of people to enjoy a legitimate sport and the right of the public to be protected. We believe that we have produced a solution that achieves both those aims. We believe that the public are protected by our proposals as far as they can be. Of course, no matter what measures we take, neither I, nor my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary, nor anyone else can absolutely guarantee that there will never be a repetition of the dreadful tragedies in Dunblane and, before that, in Hungerford. We have to try to find the solution that best protects the public and if, in the course of that solution, it is also possible to protect--at least to some extent--a legitimate sport that has been practised in this country to Olympic standard for 100 years, it is right that we should take that solution.
Mr. John Carlisle:
Will my hon. Friend give way?
Miss Widdecombe:
I shall; but I would point out, not in an aggressive way, that, because Opposition Members' speeches have eaten into the time available for my winding-up speech--[Hon. Members: "Oh."]--this will be the only intervention I accept.
Mr. Carlisle:
My hon. Friend mentioned Olympic sports, but she should also address Commonwealth sports. Our right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary said that he would look at amendments that might allow certain weapons to be brought into this country for the Manchester Commonwealth games in 2002. On that basis, will she acknowledge that, even though those weapons might come in from abroad, they will not be available for the British team to practise with? As a result, we shall be at a severe disadvantage--indeed, we shall be unable to take part even if the exemption is given. Will my hon. Friend address that problem and advise the Commonwealth games associations on what they should do in respect of Manchester?
Miss Widdecombe:
I would point out to my hon. Friend that my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary did not say that we would consider amendments to achieve the event at Manchester. In fact, no amendment would be necessary--the authority could simply be given. It is true and it must be faced that, under our proposals, it will no longer be possible for British competitors to take part in some Commonwealth games events.
12 Nov 1996 : Column 254
I want to make progress on answering some of the points that were raised in the debate. A point that was raised consistently, not only by Conservative Members but by several Opposition Members--specifically, the hon. Members for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell), for North-East Derbyshire (Mr. Barnes), for Clwyd, South-West (Mr. Jones) and for Stockton, North (Mr. Cook)--was whether we should accept the Cullen preference for dismantling rather than banning. We have come to the view that there have been no convincing arguments to overcome the objections that my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary explained in his speech and that were based on advice from the Forensic Science Service and on the document that has now been placed in the Library.
My right hon. and learned Friend pointed out that existing barrel blocks are currently commercially available only for certain types of shotgun and that they are not suitable for handguns. Even if such blocks became more widely available, it would be quite impossible to guarantee that someone with enough determination could not remove them.
As for removing parts from handguns so as to disable them, my right hon. and learned Friend acknowledged that it is true to say that the slide or cylinder can be removed from many handguns and, indeed, that it is quite easy to do so. However, that is not universally the case and, more important, it would again be impossible to ensure that people did not keep illicit spares at home.
Mr. Austin Mitchell:
Will the hon. Lady give way?
Miss Widdecombe:
I regret that I shall not. Many questions were asked in the debate, which I want to answer. I shall be happy to engage in further discussion with the hon. Gentleman, as I shall be happy to engage in discussion on any of the questions raised by my hon. Friends and by Opposition Members, but my time is somewhat truncated.
The hon. Member for Blackburn asked whether I would consider making any changes in the age limits. The hon. Gentleman was not inaccurate, but he gave a brief description of the present system and, in the limited time available, it is important to put on record that a great many caveats are already built into provisions dealing with young people's access to the types of gun that he mentioned. For instance, a person under the age of 17--the hon. Gentleman concentrated on 14-year-olds and was not inaccurate--may not purchase or hire any firearm or ammunition, and that includes shotguns, air weapons and their related ammunition. It is an offence to sell or hire a firearm or ammunition to an under-17-year-old and, again, that includes shotguns, air weapons and ammunition. A person under the age of 15 may not have an assembled shotgun with him, unless he is under adult supervision, and it is an offence to give a shotgun or ammunition to someone under 15, and so forth--I shall not go into further detail, but I thought it necessary to put that on record.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Sir C. Onslow) asked about the arrangements that we would make for museums and whether they were affected by the proposals. No changes are proposed to the existing arrangements for granting museum licences to those institutions covered by the existing legislation--those
12 Nov 1996 : Column 255
I was also asked about compensation for collections. Although compensation will be based on the value of the individual pieces in a collection, it stands to reason that, merely by being a part of a collection, a piece may have an enhanced value or a value that is affected by that fact, and that will certainly be taken into account. Again, I hope that that provides some of the necessary reassurance.
Much of the debate, particularly on the Government side, concentrated on compensation. My right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary made the situation extremely clear. We have made it clear that we will table an amended money resolution and that we will take into account the points raised in the debate when we consider our response to them and how that should be reflected in that resolution.
The hon. Member for Blackburn and others repeatedly pointed out that .22s can also be used to kill. That is self-evidently true, but in 95 per cent. of homicides involving the use of firearms recorded between 1992 and 1994, the weapons were not in that category. Indeed, the American experience clearly shows that fewer than one in eight of the weapons used in crime--not just for homicides--are .22s.
The effect of the Bill will be to give us some of the toughest gun laws in the world. That will provide the public with the protection that they deserve and that we are duty bound to give them.
I believe that this measure gives the public much reassurance, and that it is a wise and sensible Bill. At the same time, we have been concerned to preserve the legitimate activities of a century-old sport. I commend the Bill to the House. Possibly the reason why Opposition Members have been given a free vote is the number of dissenting voices that we have heard among their ranks.
Question put, That the amendment be made:--
The House divided: Ayes 35, Noes 384.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
12 Nov 1996 : Column 258
Main Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 60 (Amendment on Second or Third Reading), and agreed to.
AYES
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Batiste, Spencer
Beggs, Roy
Biffen, John
Body, Sir Richard
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Budgen, Nicholas
Carlisle, John (Luton N)
Churchill, Mr
Colvin, Michael
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Gilbert, Dr John
Gill, Christopher
Gorst, Sir John
Grant, Sir Anthony (SW Cambs)
Hamilton, Sir Archibald
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hunter, Andrew
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jopling, Michael
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
King, Tom
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Mills, Iain
Onslow, Sir Cranley
Richards, Rod
Ross, William (E Lond'y)
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Taylor, John D (Strangf'd)
Viggers, Peter
Whittingdale, John
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Winterton, Mrs Ann (Congleton)
Young, David (Bolton SE)
Mr. Tony Marlow and
Mr. Rupert Allason.
NOES
Adams, Mrs Irene
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Michael (Selby)
Allen, Graham
Amess, David
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E)
Arbuthnot, James
Armstrong, Ms Hilary
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashby, David
Ashdown, Paddy
Atkins, Robert
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Austin-Walker, John
Baker, Kenneth (Mole V)
Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Barnes, Harry
Batiste, Spencer
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beith, A J
Bendall, Vivian
Benn, Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Beresford, Sir Paul
Boateng, Paul
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Booth, Hartley
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia
Bowis, John
Boyson, Sir Rhodes
Bradley, Keith
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brazier, Julian
Brooke, Peter
Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burden, Richard
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butler, Peter
Caborn, Richard
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Canavan, Dennis
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Channon, Paul
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Clelland, David
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coe, Sebastian
Cohen, Harry
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try SE)
Cunningham, Ms R (Perth Kinross)
Currie, Mrs Edwina
Curry, David
Dafis, Cynog
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Alistair
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dewar, Donald
Dixon, Don
Dobson, Frank
Donohoe, Brian H
Dorrell, Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Dowd, Jim
Duncan, Alan
Dunn, Bob
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Dykes, Hugh
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eastham, Ken
Eggar, Tim
Elletson, Harold
Emery, Sir Peter
Etherington, Bill
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld)
Evans, John (St Helens N)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fatchett, Derek
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Forman, Nigel
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Fowler, Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Fraser, John
Freeman, Roger
French, Douglas
Fyfe, Mrs Maria
Galbraith, Sam
Gale, Roger
Gallie, Phil
Galloway, George
Garel-Jones, Tristan
George, Bruce
Gerrard, Neil
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Godman, Dr Norman A
Goodlad, Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gordon, Ms Mildred
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Graham, Thomas
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Gunnell, John
Hague, William
Hall, Mike
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hanley, Jeremy
Hannam, Sir John
Hanson, David
Hardy, Peter
Harman, Ms Harriet
Harris, David
Hawkins, Nick
Hayes, Jerry
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Sir Edward
Heathcoat-Amory, David
Henderson, Doug
Hendry, Charles
Heppell, John
Heseltine, Michael
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)
Hinchliffe, David
Hogg, Douglas (Grantham)
Home Robertson, John
Hood, Jimmy
Horam, John
Hordern, Sir Peter
Howard, Michael
Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howell, David (Guildf'd)
Hughes, Robert (Ab'd'n N)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark)
Hunt, David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)
Hurd, Douglas
Ingram, Adam
Jack, Michael
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampst'd)
Janner, Greville
Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)
Jenkins, Brian D (SE Staffs)
Jessel, Toby
Jones, Barry (Alyn & D'side)
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Dr L (B'ham Selly Oak)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Jones, Robert B (W Herts)
Jowell, Ms Tessa
Key, Robert
Kilfoyle, Peter
Kirkhope, Timothy
Kirkwood, Archy
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Kynoch, George
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamont, Norman
Lang, Ian
Legg, Barry
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lewis, Terry
Liddell, Mrs Helen
Lidington, David
Litherland, Robert
Lloyd, Tony (Stretf'd)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Lord, Michael
Loyden, Eddie
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Sir Nicholas
Lynne, Ms Liz
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
Macdonald, Calum
McFall, John
MacKay, Andrew
McKelvey, William
Mackinlay, Andrew
Maclean, David
McLoughlin, Patrick
McMaster, Gordon
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
McNamara, Kevin
McWilliam, John
Madden, Max
Maddock, Mrs Diana
Madel, Sir David
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Maitland, Lady Olga
Major, John
Malone, Gerald
Mandelson, Peter
Marek, Dr John
Marland, Paul
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Martin, Michael J (Springburn)
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, John
Meale, Alan
Merchant, Piers
Michael, Alun
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Milburn, Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Monro, Sir Hector
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Morgan, Rhodri
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Mowlam, Ms Marjorie
Mudie, George
Needham, Richard
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Norris, Steve
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
Olner, Bill
Oppenheim, Phillip
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Patten, John
Pattie, Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Portillo, Michael
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Purchase, Ken
Quin, Ms Joyce
Raynsford, Nick
Redwood, John
Reid, Dr John
Rendel, David
Rifkind, Malcolm
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rooker, Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Rowe, Andrew
Rowlands, Ted
Rumbold, Dame Angela
Sackville, Tom
Sainsbury, Sir Timothy
Salmond, Alex
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheldon, Robert
Shephard, Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Short, Ms Clare
Simpson, Alan
Sims, Sir Roger
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Smith, Tim (Beaconsf'ld)
Spearing, Nigel
Speed, Sir Keith
Spellar, John
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Spring, Richard
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Sir John
Stephen, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Stott, Roger
Strang, Dr Gavin
Straw, Jack
Streeter, Gary
Sumberg, David
Sweeney, Walter
Sykes, John
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trickett, Jon
Trotter, Neville
Turner, Dennis
Tyler, Paul
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Waldegrave, William
Walden, George
Wallace, James
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watson, Mike
Watts, John
Welsh, Andrew
Widdecombe, Miss Ann
Wigley, Dafydd
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilson, Brian
Winnick, David
Wise, Mrs Audrey
Wolfson, Mark
Worthington, Tony
Wray, Jimmy
Wright, Dr Tony
Yeo, Tim
Young, Sir George
Mr. Roger Knapman and
Mr. Gyles Brandreth.
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