---

New clause 3

Shot pistols

'. The authority of the Secretary of State is not required by virtue of subsection (1) (aba) of section 5 of the 1968 Act for a person to have in his possession or to purchase or acquire, or to sell or transfer, a shot pistol if he is authorised by a firearm certificate to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire such a firearm subject to a condition limiting its use to the destruction of pests, vermin or rabbits.'.--[Sir Jerry Wiggin.]
Brought up, and read the First time.

Sir Jerry Wiggin: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

I should say to my hon. Friend the Minister that, however long one studies these complex matters, it is extremely easy to become confused. I know that her clear mind will weave its way through the maze of legislation, but I fully sympathise with the confusion of the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, North (Mr. Henderson). In the next week or two, he will learn a lot not only about the law, but about firearms. If any of the British Shooting Sports Council's experts could offer him assistance, I would be happy to make that available for two reasons: his amendments would be better and it would save everyone much time if they were clear.

Mr. Henderson: I assure the hon. Gentleman that his colleagues in the said body have already, on a very voluntary basis, given me a significant amount of briefing.

5.30 pm

Sir Jerry Wiggin: The important thing is to have the right advice and not all that is offered.

To return to the new clause, I confess to not having heard of a shot pistol until a few hours ago, but I understand a few hundred such weapons are kept, usually for the destruction of pests in and around buildings, near pens and in confined spaces where longer and more powerful weapons might be dangerous. If the new clause were to be incorporated, I would not be opening some great door for criminal activity. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister might take a sympathetic view of this special class of vermin and rabbit-killing weapon.

Miss Widdecombe: I ask my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Sir J. Wiggin) to withdraw the new clause. That does not mean that I reject it outright. It means merely that I appreciate and sympathise with what it is intended to achieve, but would welcome the opportunity to consider whether I can draw it more tightly and bring back a more restricted version later in the consideration of the Bill.

A shot pistol is a smooth-bore pistol usually using .410 cartridges and specifically designed, as my hon. Friend has correctly said, for vermin control inside barns

19 Nov 1996 : Column 872

and outbuildings. The relatively low power of small-shot cartridges minimises damage to the fabric of the building. It must be obvious, even to confused Committee members, that it is much easier to use something that scatters shot to a low power in a barn than a shotgun, which could blow away part of the barn as well as the animal. It should also be clear that, where there are many animals, something that scatters shot is better than having to take individual shots. Therefore, we need to consider seriously whether there should be an exemption for shot pistols.

I do not want to exempt all shot pistols from the prohibition in the blanket way that the new clause suggests. The purpose is reasonable. In some circumstances, a shot pistol is obviously the most humane and effective way and, if a good reason can be produced for possession of such a weapon, it can be left to the discretion of the chief officer of police to grant a firearms certificate for that purpose. Therefore, I am prepared to consider a tight exemption to the general prohibition for shot pistols. I want to consider further the best way of achieving that. On that basis, I hope that my hon. Friend will trust me to table a Government amendment, which he will be able to accept or to oppose in due course.

Mr. Henderson: There is something in what the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Sir J. Wiggin) says. Clearly, there is a need for people in the country and perhaps even in the city to deal with vermin, but I hope that, when the Minister considers this, her proposal will be sufficiently tight to ensure that there is no abuse. One would not want this to be used as a back-door method of retaining Magnums. We all know--even I know--that if people tried to shoot a rabbit with a Magnum, there would be no rabbit left, but, for someone who was involved in target shooting with such a weapon, this would be one way of trying to ensure that he could retain it in future. I hope that the Minister will bear that in mind when she considers the matter.

Miss Widdecombe: I am happy to give that undertaking. It is precisely because I want to consider how tightly we can draw the new clause, while at the same time honouring the principle behind it, that I am inviting my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare to withdraw it.

Sir Jerry Wiggin: A .410 will never be used for target shooting. It falls under the firearms requirements because of its length. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Minister, whom I can assure I always trust. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New clause 5

Exemption for collectors

'. The authority of the Secretary of State is not required by virtue of subsection (1) (aba) of section 5 of the 1968 Act for a person to have possession of any short firearm made before 1st January 1946 if he is authorised by a firearm certificate to hold that firearm as a collector's item and not for use, or if he is a registered firearms dealer.'.--[Sir Jerry Wiggin.]
Brought up, and read the First time.

Sir Jerry Wiggin: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

19 Nov 1996 : Column 873

Let me begin by explaining why I did not move new clause 4. The items in that clause fall better in the category of collectors' items and antiques. The sort of cartridges concerned, few of which still exist, are collectors' items. Few exist because, apparently, they used to go off in people's pocket.

Exemption for collectors is an extremely important part of the legislation. In his speech on Second Reading, my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary conceded that a special case must be made for those items. I recognise that the precise phrasing of new clause 5 is unlikely to satisfy the Government and I do not intend to press it in its detail. It is a vehicle for an explanatory debate so that we can learn a little more about the Government's thinking before, I hope, my hon. Friend the Minister tables the appropriate new clauses to deal with the matter.

New clause 5 uses the approach of an amendment created in section 5 of the 1968 Act by the firearms regulations of 1992 in response to the European weapons directive, which says that, subject to important limitations

"the authority of the Secretary of State shall not be required by virtue of section 5 of this Act for any person to have in his possession, or to purchase, acquire, transfer, sell or transfer, any prohibited weapon or ammunition if he is authorised by a certificate under this Act to possess, purchase or acquire that weapon or ammunition subject to the condition that he does so only for the purpose of its being kept or exhibited as part of a collection."

New clause 5, however, is wider as it does not require the collector to have a section 5 or museum certificate.

New clause 5 is also wider in relation to the Home Secretary's suggestion, in particular with regard to pre-1919 guns of 9 mm calibre and handguns manufactured between 1919 and 1939. I shall not quote the Home Secretary in detail, but he made sympathetic noises, based on the fact that those fine weapons have been used, are treasured, loved and cosseted for their workmanship, value and collectability and are fine target guns. He concluded by saying:

"Under those proposals, pistols in the relevant categories would be subject to stringent restrictions. Their owners would have a choice. They could keep their guns securely at home on the condition that they were never fired,"--

I assume that no ammunition would be allowed either--

"or they could keep and fire them at the national shooting centre at Bisley."--[Official Report, 12 November 1996; Vol. 285, c. 186.]

The definitions of collectible weapons and of those that are exempted were dealt with in both the previous Acts. Firearms legislation is a terrible business, as we must constantly refer to the old Acts and the new Bill. Those hon. Members who will serve on the Standing Committee will need to have all those documents in front of them.

I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will be sympathetic to our intentions, and can help. Bearing in mind the fact that the Home Secretary has already made a firm statement on the matter, it would be most helpful to those in the trade and the business to know the fine details.

Sir Anthony Durant (Reading, West): I support the new clause. A number of people make the collection of antique guns a close hobby. Indeed, I have a constituent who does that. He collects the guns, but he has no intention of firing them. The guns are very valuable. The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) has already raised the question of costs. Selling the guns will be expensive, as some of them are very, very old.

19 Nov 1996 : Column 874

I understand that the Home Office has received advice from Mr. Davis Penn of the Imperial War museum on what are and what are not antiques, so some formula is available. Even if the wording of the new clause is not exactly what my hon. Friend the Minister wants, I hope that she will take the point that we are trying to make and that the Home Secretary has already conceded. I hope that the sort of people I have described will have the opportunity to continue to pursue the honourable hobby of collecting antique guns.

---