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Mrs. Ann Taylor (Dewsbury): On a different point of order, Madam Speaker. May I draw your attention to the extraordinary events in Committee Room 10 this morning, at the meeting of European Standing Committee B, to discuss documents relating to economic and monetary union? Are you aware, that Committee Room 10, which is one of our largest rooms, was so crowded that not all hon. Members who wanted to participate in the proceedings could find seats? More importantly, are you aware that the Government were defeated on their motion, and that the Committee refused even to take note of the documents before it, because hon. Members felt that those issues warranted a full debate in the Chamber?
Will you confirm, Madam Speaker, that the Government could, were they so unwise, simply table a motion so that the House has to decide the issue on a forthwith basis, and without any further debate? Such action would clearly be against the wishes of many hon. Members on both sides of the House, however, as evidenced by the support for the all-party Select Committee's motion, which is on the Order Paper.
Madam Speaker, you may recall that, when I raised similar issues in the past, the Leader of the House said that he accepted that opportunities should be provided for proper parliamentary debate on those issues. Therefore, I wish to ask you what you might be able to do to protect the rights of hon. Members, when the Government are so obviously trying to stifle debate.
Madam Speaker:
Wait just a moment. There is obviously strong feeling in the House about this matter. I am certainly not going to take all the points of order--
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Madam Speaker:
Just a moment; I select the hon. Members here. Mr. Wilshire.
Mr. David Wilshire (Spelthorne):
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I should like to ask you specifically about Standing Order No. 102, and I apologise for giving you only brief notice about this point earlier. The purpose of today's meeting, as I understood it, was to enable the Government to say at the European summit in December, that scrutiny had taken place of the three documents on economic and monetary union.
There were many points of order, and I specifically asked a formal question of the Chairman about the issue of scrutiny. I asked, "Does the fact that the Government have moved the motion equal scrutiny, and what will be the position if this Committee decides not even to take note?" The Chairman ruled that simply moving the motion did not amount to scrutiny. At 1 o'clock, the Committee voted not to take note.
By 2 o'clock, the Government were claiming that the morning's farcical proceedings indeed amounted to scrutiny. Therefore, may we have your ruling on whether scrutiny has taken place, and on whether the House has concluded this business--or does it still hang in the air?
Madam Speaker:
I call Mr. Hood, Chairman of the Select Committee on European Legislation.
Mr. Jimmy Hood (Clydesdale):
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. May I appeal to you to protect the integrity of the House--after the events of the past few days, and of today in Standing Committee B--and of my Select Committee? We do not recommend lightly that debates should take place on the Floor of the House. We did so, however, because of the importance of those three very important documents and our belief that the Standing Committee--with no disrespect to it--could not do justice to the necessary debate. We thought that it was necessary that discussion should take place in the House, and that is what we recommended. It was a unanimous decision of the Committee. I wrote to the Leader of the House on 6 November expressing our strong views, and he replied saying that, unfortunately, he could not agree to our wishes. A motion on the Order Paper, which was signed unanimously by members of the Committee, is now supported by more than 150 Members.
Will the Leader of the House give notice in his business statement tomorrow of when a motion will be dealt with, so that the Government cannot just slip it in at short notice late at night? Proper notice should be given, so that the House has a chance to retrieve its integrity.
Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham):
Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. It would be helpful if you could confirm that the situation is not unprecedented, although it would be undesirable to repeat it too often. Perhaps one of the ways forward would be to reach agreement that, at least in the next Parliament if not from now on, matters
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Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South):
Further to the point of order, Madam Speaker. I support the plea of my hon. Friend the Member for Clydesdale (Mr. Hood), the Chairman of the Select Committee on European Legislation.
Is it not a fact that the integrity of the House will not be maintained even if the Government move a motion on the Order Paper and we know the date on which they will, because it will be taken forthwith and there will be no debate? May I ask the Leader of the House, through you, Madam Speaker, whether he can make a business statement on when that motion will be tabled? Do you not feel that the House should consider referring the procedure of taking such matters forthwith to the Select Committee on Procedure? Some time ago, before the Standing Orders were changed, such matters were taken after debate.
Madam Speaker:
I am taking no further points of order on that subject. I think that I have the flavour of the House on the matter.
Madam Speaker:
No. I must clear this matter up first.
What happened in European Standing Committee B this morning has, I understand, been reported to the House by the Chairman, as laid down in Standing Order No. 102(8). Further proceedings may follow in the House in accordance with the next paragraph of the Standing Order. I do not think that it is necessary or proper for me to say anything else at this stage. It is a matter for the Government to resolve. The Leader of the House will be before us tomorrow to answer business questions--[Interruption.] Order. I shall make further inquiries. I am concerned about maintaining the integrity of the House's procedures.
Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North)
rose--
Madam Speaker:
Is it a different point of order?
Mr. Winnick:
Yes. I wonder, Madam Speaker, whether you can give us guidance--or certainly give me guidance--over the procedure for statements if information is received later than noon. I ask that question because it now appears that the Cabinet Secretary has protested in the strongest possible way over the manner in which his name and the names of Treasury civil servants have been used purely and simply for party political propaganda. In such circumstances, could a statement be made today?
The distinction between the Government, as such, and party political propaganda is very important. Since the Cabinet Secretary, Sir Robin Butler, has made the strongest possible protest to Treasury Ministers, I believe
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Madam Speaker:
Of course, it is perfectly in order for any Minister to make a statement late in the day. Ministers on the Treasury Bench have heard what the hon. Gentleman has had to say. I have not been informed that a statement is forthcoming.
Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington):
On precisely the same matter, Madam Speaker, it is clear that the Cabinet Secretary is extremely angry--
Madam Speaker:
Order. I have answered the point of order that was put to me. There were two questions: is it possible for a statement to be made later today, and will one be made? It is possible, but I have not been informed by a Minister that a statement is forthcoming. Those on the Treasury Bench have heard the feelings of the two hon. Members who have raised points of order on that issue.
Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon):
On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I apologise for not having given you notice of this point of order, but I have only just had a fax through about it. You will be aware of the severe weather affecting some parts of these islands. Several villages in my constituency have lost their electricity since yesterday morning, including 200 people in the village of Deiniolen, where several elderly people may be severely affected.
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