---

Points of Order

4.12 pm

Mr. Michael Clapham (Barnsley, West and Penistone): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Has the Secretary of State for Social Security given you notice that he intends to come before the House to make a statement on his proposals on chronic bronchitis and emphysema? He has today answered a written question in which he proposes to implement in full the recommendations of the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council as from next April and without retrospection.

I have checked with the company that now manages the mineworkers pension scheme, which informs me that an average of 700 elderly miners die each month. That means that, in the 14 months between the end of the review and implementation of the recommendations next April, roughly 10,000 miners will have died. I am not saying that all of them would have had a claim, but a good number of them would have. It is very important that the Secretary of State should come to the House to make a statement so that we can question him on these matters.

Madam Speaker: I have not been informed that the Secretary of State is seeking to make a statement on that matter. Had that been the case today, we would have known it already, because it would have appeared on the Annunciator.

Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. You will know that it is the unanimous view of the Select Committee on European Legislation that scrutiny should not be given to the package of financial measures unless and until there is a debate on the Floor of the House. You will know that it is possible for the Government to table a "forthwith" motion, and that that could be done late in the evening when no Member was available to table an amendment. In that case, it would be possible for some Members to seek to put a manuscript amendment before the House the following day. Given that the powers of the House are at stake--democracy is at stake--if a manuscript amendment were tabled in such circumstances, can you give an assurance that you would look favourably upon it?

Madam Speaker: It is hypothetical at this time, but I would look very carefully at any manuscript amendment that came my way.

Mr. Thomas Graham (Renfrew, West and Inverclyde): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Yesterday at Question Time I asked the Secretary of State for Scotland a question. He replied that the social work department of Glasgow district council was unsure how many social workers it employs. That is an inaccurate statement. I have evidence from the Glasgow social work department that it knows how many staff and social workers it employs. Furthermore, the Scottish Office was informed of those numbers some time ago. The Secretary of State should have checked with his Department so that

21 Nov 1996 : Column 1118

he could give the House accurate information. I ask that he should come before the House and clear up that misunderstanding.

Madam Speaker: The hon. Gentleman might like to consider an Adjournment debate, which would allow him to air the problems of his local authority and give the correct figures.

Mr. George Stevenson (Stoke-on-Trent, South): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I refer to Standing Order No. 102(9), which states:

"If any motion is made in the House in relation to any European Community document".

I raise this point of order in the context of European Standing Committee B. Clearly, Standing Order No. 102(9) is inconclusive, as the wording is "If any motion", not "Any motion must be". Will you ensure that there must be a report back, and that time is allowed for Back Benchers or other Members to table amendments to the motion?

Madam Speaker: I refer the hon. Gentleman and the House to the statement that I made yesterday.

Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. You will know that from time to time hon. Members have been concerned about the fact that, with regard to the agencies that the Government have set up, statements have been made without parliamentary debate or questioning of Ministers. Yesterday evening a journalist gave guidance to my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (Mr. Trimble) that there would be a statement today on prisons. On inquiring, my hon. Friend discovered that there would be no ministerial statement, but a press release from the director of prisons dealing with release and other aspects with which I would have some sympathy. By allowing such statements to be made outside the House by those who are not directly answerable to the House, we have gone too far: there is no opportunity for proper scrutiny. I hope that that will be borne in mind in future.

Madam Speaker: I am sure that those on the Treasury Bench will have heard what the hon. Gentleman said about press releases in advance of statements in the House.

Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. You have heard several Members mention, and the Leader of the House say two or three times, that the Prime Minister said that a "forthwith" motion would be tabled. I checked with one or two of my hon. Friends, who say that they did not hear that, but we must assume that such a motion may be tabled. The Leader of the House--who has, unfortunately, departed--refused to assure you and the House that such a motion would be tabled in such a way as to allow considered amendments to be tabled for your possible selection. Will you give an assurance that if any hon. Member moved the Adjournment of the House prior to such a motion being taken forthwith, you would look upon it favourably?

Madam Speaker: I can give no commitments to the hon. Gentleman, but I have noted his comments.

Mr. Paul Flynn (Newport, West): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Will you give your support to a rough

21 Nov 1996 : Column 1119

sleepers initiative for the benefit of hon. Members? You may be aware that last night five hon. Members slept rough in the room opposite the Public Bill Office in order to secure ten-minute Bill time. Conditions were most uncomfortable, but we had the opportunity for in-depth discussion and we agreed that the procedure should be abandoned in favour of selecting hon. Members perhaps in the same way as they are selected for oral questions. We believe that the present procedure is archaic and inefficient. It wastes time, it is unfair to female Members of Parliament and it has no place in a modern Parliament.

Mrs. Elizabeth Peacock (Batley and Spen): Further to that point of order, Madam Speaker. I support the hon. Gentleman in his request for a much better system. Last night and in the early hours of this morning, I flatly refused to sleep in a small conference room on the Committee Corridor with three gentlemen. [Interruption.] I would not consider sleeping with Conservative Members of Parliament and I certainly would not sleep with Labour Members.

Madam Speaker: I have noted the concerns expressed by the hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn), who raised the original point of order. I understand that a relevant report from the Procedure Committee of the last Parliament remains on the table. The hon. Gentleman may wish to ask that Committee to consider the matter again.

Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. You will be aware that last night there was a massive power failure on the London underground which trapped many thousands of Londoners in tunnels for more than an hour. I had hoped for a ministerial statement on the subject, but obviously one was not requested.

Without claiming special treatment for Members of Parliament, those hon. Members who do not drive around in chauffeured limos with police outriders would like to be informed of any problems on the underground before we attempted to travel on it. Madam Speaker, could you request London Underground authorities to inform you if such an event occurs again so that hon. Members and their staff may be warned before they try to use the underground system?

Madam Speaker: I do not think that there is anything special about hon. Members and their staff: they are treated like any other Londoners as far as I am concerned.

Mr. Banks: Yes, badly.

Madam Speaker: You should live above the shop, as I do.

Windfall Tax

4.22 pm

The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Michael Heseltine): I beg to move,

That this House deplores the dangers and injustices inherent in the concept of a windfall tax on the privatised utilities and condemns a tax that would hit consumers, shareholders and pensioners while damaging the credibility of the United Kingdom as a stable regime for inward investment.

It is now more than four years since the old Labour shadow Chancellor announced Labour's big idea of a windfall tax. Its very name implied that somehow money was there for the taking, that no one would feel the impact, and that fat cats would be punished appropriately. It implied that somehow Labour had found a pot of fool's gold with which to pay for its ever-lengthening list of unquantified spending commitments. It was a tax for the moment: a headline grabber; a soundbite tax.

Four years later, old Labour is gone and the old Labour shadow Chancellor has become the new Labour shadow Chancellor. However, the windfall relic has survived that cultural revolution--the windfall tax lives on.

Four years later, not even the most basic calculation or clarification has been advanced as to what the Labour party proposes. Every day, often in newspapers that are normally sympathetic to the Labour party, the chorus of condemnation grows. I quote from The Independent business section earlier this month:

"this is a tax hard to justify and hard to implement . . . Labour's tax lawyers and financial advisers are still, years after the proposal was mooted, wrestling with the legal difficulties of defining those the party wants to penalise."

No Conservative Member could have put it more clearly.

Today, we are providing an opportunity for the Labour party to come clean, to answer the questions, to spell out the costs, and, above all, to let the British people know what the windfall tax will cost every one of them.

---