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Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South): If the Chancellor is enthusiastic about both scrutiny and debate, why have he and the Leader of the House, who foreshadowed such a debate in his letter, not allowed it to take place this week? When will they table the requisite motion under Standing Order No. 102(9)? Why might that not occur this week? Will the one-day debate on a motion for the Adjournment, which the right hon. Gentleman has promised, take place after possible political agreement has been reached? Is that not shutting the stable door moments after the horse has bolted? How can an Adjournment debate, without a proper amendable motion, be regarded as, first, proper scrutiny; secondly, proper debate; and, thirdly, an expression of the views of the House on the merits of the documents?
Mr. Clarke: My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House is listening to the various views expressed about a debate and the form that it will take, and he will make a statement in due course. My Budget and the debate that follows it will take up a substantial amount of parliamentary time this week. I have made it clear that, until we have completed the scrutiny process, any political agreement that I enter into in ECOFIN will be hedged with the parliamentary scrutiny reserve, which means that it is non-binding and subject to the approval of Parliament.
Mr. Tim Renton (Mid-Sussex): I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend on his lucid statement.
Is not the real reason for the passion that has led to this mini-debate the fact that hon. Members on both sides of the House are beginning to learn that, whether or not we are in EMU, we shall have to learn to live with it, and it is that knowledge that is making a number of hon. Members wish to have an urgent debate on the Floor of the House? Is not the crude fact that, as 60 per cent. of our manufactured exports now go to our European trading partners, any failure in European markets would be very bad news for British manufacturers? Against that background, is it not in Britain's interest to see that the financial rules governing a stability pact are as tough as possible?
Mr. Clarke:
I agree with my right hon. Friend. It would be a great folly for us to seek to detach this country, for some reason, from the process of discussion of this kind inside the European Union when we are so dependent on the major countries of the Union for our exports, as my right hon. Friend describes. He gave one analysis as to why we are having those misunderstandings, and he is right. Another reason, of course, is that there is so much detail in the regulations. They are about as exciting a read as the social security regulations that flow through the House, and they give plenty of opportunity for people to take little bits out of them and get wildly excited that something new is happening.
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That process is not helped by Her Majesty's press, which does that all the time--[Interruption.] I have been brought to the House today by weekend newspaper reports written by journalists who--[Interruption.] I do not mind coming to the House at any time. I have come to the House because of reports that appear in the newspapers, which have been written by people who appear to have copies of those documents, who produce front-page stories that do not bear the faintest resemblance to the leaked documents that they allegedly have. That rather confuses debate as far as the public, and sometimes the House, are concerned.
Mr. Ted Rowlands (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney):
Will the Chancellor answer the question that was put to him earlier? If he and the Government are to agree to a stability pact, will he seek the approval of the House before doing so?
Mr. Clarke:
I shall go through the scrutiny procedure--[Interruption.] I am not in control--[Hon. Members: Oh!"] I know that I am. I know that we have not finished the scrutiny procedures. I have repeatedly said that, and I have said that I will keep a reserve until we have finished the scrutiny procedures. The form by which we go through that is not a matter for me, and my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will make a statement about that in due course.
Mr. Quentin Davies (Stamford and Spalding):
Does not the whole of this saga demonstrate in the most graphic and dramatic fashion how enormously important it is, in the interest of the country, that we continue to exercise a full measure of leverage on events? Is it not the case that, had my right hon. and learned Friend and the Prime Minister given in to the rather hasty pressures to which they were being subjected a few months ago--to throw away our option--there would not be the slightest point in the statement this afternoon or any scrutiny debate because we would not in practical terms have the slightest influence on the decisions, vital though they will be for our country, whether or not we decide to join monetary union?
Mr. Clarke:
I agree. I would have thought that every hon. Member on both sides of the House, whether he or she regards himself or herself as Europhile or Europhobe or anywhere in the spectrum between, would agree that it is not in this country's interest to detach British Ministers from the process of discussion and negotiation inside the European Union. Whatever future one sees for this country inside the EU, it is absolutely important that we keep our influence, and it is particularly important that we keep our options open on such vital matters when all the key details have yet to be settled.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover):
Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer not realise that he has been dragged to the Dispatch Box--the phrase that he almost used--in a humiliating fashion a day before the Budget partly because of the Government's failure to see what was happening when the three proposals were put to the Committee upstairs? Anybody who went up there that Wednesday morning would have known exactly what was
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Mr. Clarke:
I decided to come to the Dispatch Box when I realised that the debate was spiralling off who knows where. The matter was reported in ever more extravagant ways outside the House. I am happy to come to the House, and prefer to do so, to answer all points. I am told that the hon. Gentleman passed through the Standing Committee for a few moments. I look forward to seeing him try to catch your eye in the debate, Madam Speaker. It seems to me that he has not had the slightest change of opinion on this or any other subject for the past 25 years, and it is always welcome to hear his views again.
Sir Peter Hordern (Horsham):
Is it not a delusion to suppose that any future British Government will have the freedom to run a substantial budget deficit without incurring high interest rates? Is it not, therefore, all the more important that we play a part in shaping the rules that will govern the powerful European currency that is certain to emerge?
Mr. Clarke:
My right hon. Friend is right. Nowadays, any major country that pursues irresponsible deficit or fiscal policies is rapidly punished by the markets and by reality. The problem that arises from economic and monetary union is that everyone is punished if one country goes off the rails and runs irresponsible policies. The treaty wisely provides deterrent penalties to keep any Government who fail to correct that problem back on track, otherwise all members of the economic and monetary union will suffer.
Mr. Kevin McNamara (Kingston upon Hull, North):
Is the Chancellor of the Exchequer aware that those of us who favour a single currency, and would like this country to join on the first wave, are nevertheless worried about two important matters? First, reports on the criteria for convergence give us to believe that there will be a loose organisation for the first tranche, which could be an enormous disaster for the economic basis of the European Community. Secondly, many hon. Members believe that the matters that went before the Scrutiny Committee should be decided on the Floor of the House, as the Scrutiny Committee itself resolved. The three issues could be debated and put to the vote on the Floor of the House so that, if the vote were in favour, the Chancellor could go to the summit with the support of the House, and would not have to come back to tales of treachery and treason and a hysteria that he and his colleagues have whipped up.
Mr. Clarke:
I agree with the hon. Gentleman on the first point. It is highly desirable for the member states that go into economic and monetary union not to do so on such a loose basis that their economies are not genuinely convergent. I am in favour of a strict interpretation of the convergence criteria.
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