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Mr. Gummer: Until the hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) asked his question, I had hoped that today we would proceed on the basis that much of the report was common ground, such as the suggestion that we should use all the accommodation we now have as efficiently as possible. That means that local councils, if they own houses, should seek large-scale voluntary transfers that would considerably improve the efficient use of the accommodation.

I hope that local councils that own accommodation will ensure that the changeover takes place quickly. I should like to see more private owners able to let accommodation in their homes. There are many actions that we can take; I agree with my hon. Friend that it is most important that we do not waste the accommodation we have, because that is environmentally unacceptable.

Mr. Neil Gerrard (Walthamstow): The Secretary of State has said several times that his Department has underestimated the population projections for some years. Since those projections become the starting point for regional planning guidance for housing provision, is not the implication that the number of houses that need to be built has also been grossly underestimated? Even the Government accept that some houses will be built as social housing, mainly by housing associations, so can we expect that the Budget this week will provide more money to put right the backlog that the Secretary of State has just admitted?

Mr. Gummer: The hon. Gentleman is talking about two different sets of figures. We have clear figures on the need for housing for those in special need. Indeed, I am sure he will agree that the success of the housing action trust in his constituency has been remarkable. Although he was opposed to it to start with, I believe that he is now in favour of it, because it has been so successful. Much can be done, and is being done, in supported housing.

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We must get all hands to the pump, and one way to do that is for the hon. Member to encourage his local council to use the large-scale voluntary transfer mechanism, as is happening in many local councils, to ensure that we release large funds to improve housing and to reduce debt.

Sir Irvine Patnick (Sheffield, Hallam): I welcome my right hon. Friend's Green Paper. He has not said much about green belts or about the tricks that local authorities such as Sheffield play when they try to bring land and sites out of the green belt into production. I trust that he will examine that aspect closely, because a huge tract of green belt land was prevented from going into development only by the action of one of his colleagues.

Mr. Gummer: I am glad that my hon. Friend agrees that my Department and one of my fellow Ministers stopped that happening, and Sheffield city council should not have sought to do it. I have committed myself again to being the strongest supporter of the green belt of any Secretary of State in recent times, and I shall continue to be that. The green belt is part of the protection of sustainable development. We cannot continue to destroy the areas that are especially important for the rest and relaxation of the people who live in cities. It is not acceptable.

Mr. George Foulkes (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley): I shall try not to upset the Secretary of State, although he is awfully sensitive today. I do not know what has come over him. He said that he wants a national debate involving the whole country. He did not say anything about Scotland, yet the problems arise equally in Scotland. How much has the Scottish Office been involved so far in this issue, and will there be a parallel debate in that part of the United Kingdom?

Mr. Gummer: No one could be more enthusiastic than I about the United Kingdom and the desire of the whole of the United Kingdom to work together. The hon. Gentleman's support for a policy that would divide the United Kingdom and break it up does not give him much ground for what he has just said. I happen to be the Secretary of State for the Environment for England, so I am seeking to encourage discussion in the areas for which I am responsible and to which the figures refer.

It is proper for the Secretaries of State for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to deal with those issues as they feel necessary. They have different problems with different pressures, which is one reason why we have a Secretary of State for each area.

Mr. Keith Mans (Wyre): Does my right hon. Friend agree that, in determining how much accommodation we will need in the future, we should take into account not only extra households but the number of places in care homes for the elderly? Does he further agree that one way of ensuring that development takes place in urban areas and not on green-field sites is to encourage local authorities to write policies to ensure that into their local plans? If that were done, councils deciding on planning applications would have a good reason for refusing one for a green-field site, because the development would not be inside an urban area. In addition, writing such a policy into the plans would make it less likely that a decision to refuse an application would be overturned on appeal.

Mr. Gummer: I agree with my hon. Friend's last remarks, and we ought to look more carefully at the

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wisdom of always assuming that older people should live apart from their families. That is an area in which other European countries have a lot to teach us.

Mr. Paul Flynn (Newport, West): What priority has the Secretary of State given to the need to make the new homes energy-efficient? Will he examine the supreme qualities of new, modernised and galvanised steel frames and steel cladding? When he discovers their advantages in terms of durability and energy efficiency, will he promote their use--particularly the steel frames that are manufactured in Newport, Gwent?

Mr. Gummer: Energy efficiency is particularly important to the existing housing stock, as new houses will be built according to the tougher legislation that is now in place. The House will have noticed that the previous two Labour speakers--the first from Scotland and the second from Wales--would not have the status to question the English Secretary of State were Labour's policies on devolution to be followed.

Mr. Mark Robinson (Somerton and Frome): My right hon. Friend's statement will be welcomed throughout Somerset, where there is great concern at the pressure that new houses may bring to the countryside. He has placed strong emphasis on brown-field sites. Will he make sure that counties with a shortage of brown-field sites, such as Somerset, are not told by their Liberal Democrat local authorities that, because of that shortage, they must build in the green countryside and villages, whose very character may be threatened?

Mr. Gummer: I agree, and the Liberal Democrats in Somerset wasted no time in saying that it would have to build on green-field sites. I suggest that the council should spend more time trying to find answers, as my hon. Friend suggests. The reason why the council made its announcement was straightforwardly party political. It wanted to frighten people, and to claim that the Government were threatening them. We heard that from the Liberal Democrats--as we always do.

Mr. Roy Thomason (Bromsgrove): I welcome my right hon. Friend's statement, and its particular emphasis on urban development. Will he confirm that he will not introduce a contaminated land regime, which would mitigate against his targets for urban development and his particular emphasis on brown-field sites?

In considering his green-field site policy, will he take account of the considerable concerns raised in areas around major conurbations where there is the possibility of the green belt being infringed? Does he agree that the green belt should be protected, and should not be allowed to be infringed by the development of transport connections arising from housing developments which spiral out from the conurbations and damage green belt areas?

Mr. Gummer: I shall certainly continue to protect the green belt areas. One of the problems with the phrase "contaminated land" is that it covers everything from land that is merely second-hand to land that has been deeply contaminated by a previous use, such as a gas station. It is

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a mistake to use those words in the generality, as we must clean up sites to the standard necessary for their purpose. In some cases--I hope, in more and more cases--that will be housing.

Mr. Peter Luff (Worcester): I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement and for encouraging a debate on the subject. Does he understand that the people of Worcester will be alarmed by the new and higher figures for household formation rates that he has provided to the House?

First, can I urge my right hon. Friend to collaborate with his Government colleagues and with other organisations to find a way to create a downward impact on household formation rates, which I do not believe the House should accept as a given? Secondly, can I urge him to set a target of two thirds for the building of new houses in urban areas and brown-field sites? Thirdly, will he encourage the county councils which are setting arbitrary divisions in terms of the areas where development should go--I am thinking particularly of Worcestershire--to introduce policies that enable new housing developments to be spread evenly across county council areas and not concentrated in sensitive areas?

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