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11.44 am

Mr. Peter Hain (Neath): I appeal directly to the Welsh director of the Benefits Agency, Ian Watson, to stop doing the Tories' bidding in hitting so callously some of the most vulnerable citizens of Wales. I remind him that there is likely to be a change of Government at the next general election and he must be careful that he does not become one of the Benefits Agency customers he is seeking to punish.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Social Security (Mr. Roger Evans): Disgraceful.

Mr. Hain: The Tories complain, but their decisions impact on some of our most vulnerable, down trodden, poverty-stricken citizens. Sometimes we need to speak bluntly in defence of our constituents.

My constituency includes important parts of the upper Swansea valley and lower Aman valley which will be punitively affected by the proposed cuts. I understand that the caller offices in the Dulais valley at Seven Sisters and at Pontardawe in the Swansea valley are to be closed. That means that for villages such as Gwaun-cae-Gurwen and Ystalyfera, the nearest place at which people will be able to get direct personal contact is Swansea. In some cases, that is a long bus journey of 20 miles away.

Mr. Barry Jones (Alyn and Deeside): Does my hon. Friend know that the closure of the Shotton caller office and of offices at Rhyl and Flint will be a great blow to my constituents?

Mr. Hain: My hon. Friend speaks eloquently, as always, for his constituents, and it is important that that point should be placed on the record.

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We are talking about pensioners, people on benefits, people with disabilities--the people who are least able to protect themselves. The bus services up the valleys have been slashed in recent years because of Government cuts. The bus subsidies have been cut because of Welsh Office cuts in funding.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. So far, every hon. Member has kept tightly to the benefits offices. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will do so, too and not cover the bus service in Wales.

Mr. Hain: I shall, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but the matter is relevant. To travel 10 or 20 miles instead of going to a caller office in their village means that people will have to take the bus. Such people often do not have cars or telephones. They are being hit at almost every point. It is unacceptable for this callous attack on some of our most vulnerable citizens to go ahead. I hope that the Benefits Agency will reject the Government's pressure to cut its budget and instead stand up for our constituents, who are its clients and some of the most deprived members of our communities.

11.47 am

Mr. Rod Richards (Clwyd, North-West): I shall be brief, because I realise that time is short. There are two major benefits agency offices in my constituency.

Mr. Ron Davies (Caerphilly): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You will be aware that the hon. Gentleman has been in the Chamber for scarcely 10 minutes. How he can make an orderly contribution to the debate when he was not here for the first part of it, and, in particular, for when the hon. Member for Ynys Mon opened it?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: In any debate, irrespective of when an hon. Member comes in, it is a matter for the judgment of the Chair at what point an hon. Member should be called. It is also a judgment of the Chair that all sides and views on a subject should be heard.

Mr. Richards: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. That was a disgraceful point of order.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I do not want any further comments on points of order.

Mr. Richards: I have constituents who are affected by the proposed reorganisation. As you correctly say, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am entitled to represent their interests just as Opposition Members are entitled to represent the interests of theirs.

Two Benefits Agency offices in my constituency will be affected by the proposed reorganisation, the one in Rhyl and the one in Colwyn Bay. I understand that the agency in Rhyl is to be downgraded, while that in Colwyn Bay is to be upgraded.

Will my hon. Friend the Minister assure me that those of my constituents who use the Rhyl office will have access to the same level and quality of service as they have enjoyed thus far? I have visited the Rhyl office on many occasions, and I have always been impressed by the professionalism of its staff.

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The second assurance that I would like from my hon. Friend concerns those who work at the Rhyl office. In any planned reorganisation, it is reasonable for people to expect as few forced redundancies as possible. As the proposed reorganisation has been on the cards for some time, I hope that there will be no forced redundancies at Rhyl. Given the size of the Benefits Agency, I hope that my hon. Friend can reassure me and those of my constituents who work at the Rhyl office that that will be the case.

I understand that the office in Colwyn Bay will be upgraded and expanded. Again, I have visited the office frequently and it is well and professionally run. It was a great pleasure for me to open its new service area recently. It is an excellent example of a modern service area not just for the Benefits Agency, but for any other organisation that services the public.

There is an upside for the Rhyl office, which many of my constituents who do not have to use it will welcome--like other holiday resorts in Wales and many other parts of the country, Rhyl suffers from a phenomenon which has led to it being popularly known as Dole on Sea.

I should be grateful if my hon. Friend the Minister would address those two specific issues so that I can reassure my constituents.

11.52 am

Mrs. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley): I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Mon (Mr. Jones) on securing the debate, but it is disgraceful that we have to have such a debate at all. This is yet another harebrained scheme dreamed up by the Government.

I notice that the Minister likes to turn himself into a punchbag. The other week, he turned himself into a punchbag on the subject of chronic bronchitis and emphysema compensation. We managed to punch some sense into him on that occasion and I hope that we can do the same today.

It is clear that Wales is being turned once again into a testing ground for a scheme that will eventually lead to the privatisation of the benefits system. For example, page 8 of the blueprint document refers to

"the involvement of the private sector in the delivery of our business."

The proposed changes to the working of the Benefits Agency offices in Wales will affect people already claiming benefits and others in the future who want to know about their entitlements. If the proposals for Wales are implemented--I hope that they never will be--that will mean an end to the crucial face-to-face contact with Benefits Agency staff.

The Minister cannot be any different from other Members of Parliament. We spend a considerable amount of our time dealing with queries about social security payments. The present system is not working well, but the system that he is proposing will be even worse, and Members of Parliament will spend even more of their time sorting out the kind of queries that the Government should be answering.

What is being proposed as a replacement for the present arrangements is, effectively, nothing more than a Benefits Agency telephone chatline. It is no substitute for a proper dedicated benefits service. People in my constituency and throughout Wales deserve better than that.

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Just over a year ago, the Select Committee on Social Security reported on the work of the Benefits Agency. It said that a claimant should be able to receive accurate advice and that a one-stop service, of the kind that we have at present, is the ideal arrangement for such a service. That is what the Benefits Agency should be required to provide, not something peppered with the appalling management jargon to which many of my hon. Friends have referred, such as "customer interface".

On Sunday, the Minister was quoted as saying that the figures show that benefit help for those on low income is continuing to reach those in greatest need. The Minister, of course, was referring to the figures for benefit take-up. The proposals detailed in the document that we are considering this morning are tied to the Minister's responsibility to ensure that benefit help is reaching those who need it most. Thousands of people in my constituency and throughout Wales can tell the Minister from personal experience that help is not getting through to those who need it most.

My hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) will remember that, in his constituency, the European Community set up the south Wales anti-poverty action project, the main aim of which was to tell people to what benefits they were entitled. I think that he will agree that it was an enormous success, but the European Community had to provide that basic information to people because the Government were not doing their job.

Why, according to House of Commons Library figures, does between £114 million and £168 million of income support go unclaimed in Wales each year? In the Cynon valley alone, between £2.6 million and £3.9 million of income support is unclaimed every year. If the benefit is really reaching those who need it, will the Minister explain to the widows and families of men in the Cynon valley and other former mining communities why hundreds will die before the new chronic bronchitis and emphysema compensation scheme takes effect next April?

Surely the Minister's primary duty is to ensure that benefit is paid to those who are entitled to receive it, and that people are made aware of their entitlement and given every assistance to take it up. That process relies on a proper network of local benefit offices run by dedicated staff. Let us hear no more nonsense about customer interface, and let us hear more about providing a proper face-to-face service at the point of need to people who are desperately in need of help and support.

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