---

East Timor

11. Mrs. Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what financial assistance is being given by Her Majesty's Government to the Indonesian transmigration programme in East Timor. [4596]

Mr. Hanley: We give no financial assistance to the Indonesian transmigration programme.

Mrs. Clwyd: The Minister continually says that to the House, but is it not absolutely untrue? The Government give money out of overseas aid to the Indonesian transmigration programme. There are several projects, three of which I could name, that the Government are aiding. Is that not to be deplored? It means moving a population out of Java into East Timor to dilute the indigenous population, so, if and when there is a referendum on the future of East Timor, the population will have been diluted. Are the Government not misleading the House and acting illegally under the Overseas Development and Co-operation Act 1980?

Mr. Hanley: I believe that the hon. Lady is mistaken. There has been no UK involvement in the transmigration programme since 1989.

Mr. Nicholls: Does my right hon. Friend discern in the hon. Lady's question a wider agenda of constantly seeking to denigrate the Government of Indonesia? It is suggested that human rights abuses, which certainly have taken place in Indonesia in years past, are not being properly investigated. Will my right hon. Friend take this opportunity to say that, whatever comparisons might be made between this country and Indonesia, the Indonesian Government have certainly taken on board the criticisms which have been made of them in the past by the international community? The interests of the people of Indonesia, in its entirety, would be better served if right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House gave due credit for what has been done, instead of constantly sniping at and denigrating a democratic Government who are trying to do their honest best.

Mr. Hanley: My hon. Friend makes some extremely good points. I believe that his approach is a balanced one. Britain is the largest European investor in Indonesia. We consider it to be a bilateral relationship of considerable significance. Indonesia is, after all,

27 Nov 1996 : Column 329

the fourth largest country in the world. Its size and strategic location make it a major player in south-east Asia, and it is a growing market for British exports. In 1995, the value of those exports was £525 million, and the figure rose by 68 per cent. in the first nine months of 1996.

Indonesia plays a leading role in the multilateral arena. Yes, there are troubles in Indonesia; yes, we refer to any breaches of human rights on every occasion that we meet Indonesian Ministers; but as my hon. Friend says, progress has been made, and that will continue.

Arms Sales

12. Mr. Barry Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent advice his Department has given to other Government Departments about Government policy on arms sales. [4597]

Mr. David Davis: We give regular advice to other Government Departments on the foreign policy aspects of arms sales to other countries. It is the Government's policy to encourage legitimate exports of arms and military equipment unless there are compelling foreign, security or defence policy reasons not to do so.

Mr. Jones: What action is the Department taking to ensure that France and Germany sign up to and order the future large aircraft? The wings of the European Airbus aircraft are made by 2,500 of my constituents, who are desperately anxious to know the future and status of that military project. Can the Minister help?

Mr. Davis: The hon. Gentleman has a legitimate and sizeable constituency interest in that project. He may not know that, a few weeks ago, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and I visited the Airbus Industrie factory in Toulouse on the day that it won the huge order from US Air. I wholeheartedly approve of that European project: it is extremely successful.

After that meeting, we went to the summit in Bordeaux attended by the French President. The matter was raised with him, and it was agreed that both countries had a significant interest in the project. We understand that it will be discussed by the French and Germans on 9 December. For our part, we continue to press hard to ensure that the project is put on a commercial basis so that it will be successful. That is what we all want to achieve.

Mr. Viggers: Does my hon. Friend agree that the experts on the export of military equipment are the manufacturers themselves? Many of them, such as Basys Technology in my constituency and Vosper Thornycroft, have been extremely successful not only in selling military equipment, but in diversifying into civilian activity. Does he agree that the last thing those successful manufacturers want is the Government, through an agency, telling them what to do, and telling them to diversify into civilian products?

Mr. Davis: My hon. Friend is right. That is the best way to ensure that we preserve jobs. They are the best

27 Nov 1996 : Column 330

people to make those decisions, bearing in mind the defence, security, foreign policy and human rights constraints to which I referred.

Iraq

13. Mr. Campbell-Savours: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he next intends to meet his American counterpart to discuss Iraq. [4598]

Mr. Hanley: My right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary discussed Iraq with Mr. Christopher on many occasions. There are no plans for a special meeting at this stage.

Mr. Campbell-Savours: To what extent has the relationship between Her Majesty's Government and Mr. Barzani been compromised or in any way influenced by his decision to ask Saddam Hussein for support during the recent conflict?

Mr. Hanley: I believe that there has been no change in our relationship.

Sir David Steel: While the Minister is waiting to find out who his American counterpart will be, is it the intention to revive the plans for humanitarian assistance to the people of Iraq, especially the children, that were interrupted by the renewed confrontation with Saddam Hussein?

Mr. Hanley: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question. The Sanctions Committee meets today, and I hope that United Nations Security Council resolution 986 will be implemented so that much-needed humanitarian aid can be given to the people of Iraq. That aid has been held up by Saddam Hussein. He will soon be able to receive $1 billion every three months. That will provide--not before time--a total of $2.5 billion-worth of humanitarian aid to the people of Iraq.

Zaire

14. Mr. Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he next expects to meet representatives of the United Nations to discuss the refugee crisis in Zaire. [4599]

Dr. Liam Fox: Our permanent representatives to the UN in New York and Geneva are in regular contact with the UN secretariat, members of the Security Council and representatives of UN agencies regarding the situation in eastern Zaire.

Mr. Hanson: I welcome what the Minister has said, and what the Foreign Secretary said earlier, but is there not a need for a political solution, as well as military activity in terms of the humanitarian effort? What new initiatives will the Government take with the UN, both in New York and on the ground with the special envoy, to ensure that a political solution is reached?

Dr. Fox: First, let me say how grateful the Government are for the efforts of the European Union and UN special

27 Nov 1996 : Column 331

envoys. We are in constant touch with our partners, and with UN agencies. Any political solution, however, must be regionally based. There is no point in even attempting an imposed solution; the solution must be developed by the states in the region. We cannot impose a solution on African states: the solution must come from those states themselves.

European Parliament

15. Mr. Whittingdale: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what was the total annual cost of the European Parliament in 1995-96; and if he will make a statement. [4600]

Mr. David Davis: The provision for the European Parliament in the 1996 EC budget is 803 million ecu, or £617 million. The provision in the 1995 budget was 843 million ecu, or £648 million. Final outturn figures for 1995 are not yet available.

Mr. Whittingdale: Can my hon. Friend confirm that the figure that he has just given represents approximately £1 million for each Member of the European Parliament? Does he think that that represents value for money?

Mr. Davis: The costs are very high. I find myself in the interesting position of defending the European Parliament on this issue.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton: Why?

Mr. Davis: Because, unlike our Parliament, the European Parliament has 11 languages to translate. That is pretty expensive. It also pays rent, which we do not, and must bear travel costs between three locations.

Having said that, I must add that we try at every turn to ensure that we get value for money from all institutions. That is one reason why we gave more powers to the auditors at Maastricht to look into the cost of institutions. It is worth saying that the budget for this year is 5 per cent. down on last year's.

Rev. Martin Smyth: The Minister referred to travel costs. Has there been any suggestion that there should be a Nolan commission to keep a check on MEPs' travel costs? Is any investigation of leakages from any of our Commissioners in Europe going on?

Mr. Davis: The President of the European Parliament, Mr. Hansch, has taken on board some of the points made in the press and on television recently, and has undertaken to investigate them and resolve the matter. He obviously does not want the European Parliament to fall into disrepute.

---