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Mr. Doug Henderson (Newcastle upon Tyne, North): New clause 2 deals with the age at which young people can own, use or purchase a firearm such as an airgun or shotgun. The current law is confused, and there was extensive discussion in Committee of that. I may be wrong but I got the feeling that, at the end of those discussions, the Committee was not absolutely clear about what the regulations were in every circumstance.
The easiest summary of the current position is that someone has to be 17 to purchase an airgun or shotgun, but on private land with supervision there may be circumstances in which it is lawful for someone under that age to use an airgun. Shotguns can be used by people
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We need to review the age limits. It cannot be right that someone aged 14 or 15 can use a gun but cannot watch films at the cinema that depict the violent use of the same guns. It cannot be right that someone can use a gun but cannot drive a motor bike, even in regulated circumstances. Our previous legislation on such matters has got us into a muddle. It is not clear what the intentions of the House were when the regulations were drawn up. They have been up drawn up piecemeal over a long period.
In Committee, the thrust of our argument was that there should be a review. People should be 18 to be able to purchase a weapon as lethal as an airgun or shotgun; at 17, people could use the said weapons unsupervised; there should be no use under the age of 14 in any situation; and supervision would be required between 14 and 17. It was argued in Committee that some reflection might be helpful and that the Government should report to the House at an early stage on proposals to provide a regulatory environment and change the age limits. However, the Government argued, as the Minister said again today, that it would be more appropriate for the matter to be referred to the Firearms Consultative Committee. If the Government had been prepared to say that they would be guided by the committee's report, that would have been progress.
The problem is that, even if the Government had said that, that would not have convinced many members of the public. Few of them will be convinced that the Firearms Consultative Committee is a genuinely independent body, which will consider all aspects of the sale and use of guns. It seems to me that when two thirds of that committee has a clear interest in shooting, it cannot be described as an independent and objective body.
The Government may genuinely wish to review the age limits and regulatory regime and want to gain the political capital from making such a step forward, but surely they cannot gain that when they are dependent on the Firearms Consultative Committee for such advice. If the Government were genuinely committed to such a review, they would want a far more independent body, of the status of the inquiry chaired by Lord Cullen, to consider the use of shotguns and airguns.
Sir Jerry Wiggin (Weston-super-Mare):
The hon. Gentleman's attack on the Firearms Consultative Committee shows that he has little knowledge of why it was instituted and when. It was instituted as a result of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 for the specific purpose of making sure that those with some knowledge of shooting could persuade their fellow committee members of a line of thought, based on their knowledge of the sport.
If the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that there should be a committee of non-experts, frankly he might as well consult Ministers without any special knowledge or any other body without that knowledge. The whole purpose of the Firearms Consultative Committee is to offer specialist
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Mr. Henderson:
The hon. Gentleman must consider the difference between a body that gives technical advice and that which assesses the use of weapons, the circumstances of their use, the dangers involved and protections that may be necessary not only for those users but for the rest of the public. Those are two different types of committee and the persons serving on them should have different backgrounds. If the hon. Gentleman were honest with himself, he would recognise that. I am sure that he would also recognise that the Firearms Consultative Committee does not meet the second criteria of being genuinely independent and having the ability to look at those different aspects of use.
Mr. Frank Cook (Stockton, North):
I seek to be helpful to the House. The difference of view that is apparent now appears to be based on the idea that the gun culture, which frightens all of us, is endemic. I want the House to consider a serious point. When I look at television programmes, videos or films, I see the likes of Starsky and Hutch or Cagney and Lacey dashing around in great cars and blasting people's heads off. That is what I look upon as the gun culture--the Sylvester Stallone syndrome, which believes that a firearm will resolve any argument and deliver a solution to any problem.
I want the House to consider that in gun clubs there exists the counter to that culture. Those clubs are subject to strict discipline and a strict regime. Anyone who suggests not conforming with that regime is promptly rebuked, chastised and taken to task. Gun clubs create and impose the kind of regimen that counters the undisciplined behaviour that we see on our screens. If we remember that, perhaps we will go some way to understanding the point that the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Sir J. Wiggin) has tried to make.
Mr. Henderson:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but I am sure that, in common with the hon. Member for Weston-super-Mare (Sir J. Wiggin), he would recognise that there is a distinction between a committee that gives technical advice and one that assesses the general environment in which weapons are used. I hope that my hon. Friend will consider that, if we want to examine the use of shotguns or airguns, we need a more independent committee than one which, I accept, is well qualified to give technical advice.
I recognise my hon. Friend's point about the television culture and the violence that is endemic in many programmes and I share his abhorrence of that. I wish that fewer of our television programmes were dominated by that culture, because it has an impact on society.
My hon. Friend also said that he believed that there was a tough regime in pistol clubs and that there were sufficient regulations to protect the public. I hope that I have accurately paraphrased my hon. Friend's point. I disagree with his views on how we should deal with the problem of guns in our country. I think that we should prohibit the use of all pistols, whereas, as I understand his arguments, my hon. Friend would want us to allow certain pistols to be used in certain regulated circumstances.
Through new clauses 2 and 3, I ask the House to consider the need for a regulatory regime for airguns and shotguns. My hon. Friend already acknowledges that such
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It is not only Members of Parliament who are aware of the need for change, and the House should be aware of three short pieces of evidence before it reaches a decision on this matter. Lord Cullen himself, in paragraph 9.119 on page 132 of his report, raised the problem of the dangers of air weapons and
Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed):
For the record, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will confirm that, having drawn attention to the issue of airguns, Lord Cullen added:
Mr. Henderson:
I am not as grateful to the right hon. Gentleman as I usually am when he intervenes. All hon. Members are aware of Lord Cullen's comments on airguns and shotguns.
The police also have a firm view on this issue. In its submission to the Cullen inquiry, the English and Welsh police service joint commission--an ad hoc committee comprising the organisations that represent chief constables, superintendents and other members of the police force--argued that there should be a rationalised system of age limits: 18 for ownership and 16 for supervised use.
There is compelling evidence of confusion about the ages at which certain things are lawful or not lawful; and there is a considerable weight of intelligent public opinion that believes that there is a need both to sort out that confusion and to reflect on the need for any change. In some respects, the Minister acknowledged those points in her earlier remarks, before I had the chance to put the case in favour of new clauses 2 and 3.
There is a need for action. If the Government are to accept advice from the Firearms Consultative Committee before the Bill receives Royal Assent and if they feel that they can act upon that advice, new clause 2 would give them the opportunity to make changes. I hope that the Minister accepts my argument and that the Government will reconsider their opposition to new clause 2.
New clause 3 is closely linked. It addresses the question of which firearms should be subject to licence and which should not. Currently, airguns are not normally subject to licence and shotguns are subject to a separate licensing system. New clause 3 has been tabled in relation to airguns.
"the question of whether they should be . . . unavailable until a later age than at present."
The second piece of evidence is the 1973 Green Paper on the control of firearms in Great Britain, which recommended a ban on under-18s buying any variety of firearm and an age limit of 16 for firing, under supervision, air weapons and shotguns. That important Green Paper is often forgotten, but it contained some telling observations.
"I make no recommendation on these matters".
Perhaps he was wise not to do so, because where he has made recommendations, we seem to ignore them.
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