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Sir Jerry Wiggin: Perhaps I could follow the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) on the subject of age. I learned to shoot before age limits were introduced, and I recall with great pleasure at the age of nine or 10 walking around my father's farm with him behind me training me in all the good habits of shooting safety. I had exciting times creeping around corners to shoot rabbits, and I hope that subsequently I have been a safe shot.
It is not just the teaching of shotgun shooting or some other forms of shooting that is good. A national coach who was in my surgery a fortnight ago told me that he was training a boy of 12 in pistol-shooting discipline. He told me that the boy was so good that he could almost join the national squad now, and said, "By the time he is 14 he will be an international. I can keep him at that level only if I can keep shooting with him and training him."
It is a question of supervision and common sense. The law is not generous, but it has been generally accepted that it is safe. There are no cases of young people being involved in accidents, or, happily, being irresponsible. There is no reason for changing the present rules, which are seen by many people as draconian and certainly much more severe than they were when I and my right hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) were young students in the art of shooting and handling a gun.
Airguns are altogether different. I regret that the Opposition have seen fit to introduce them to the controversy at this time. The airgun is a different instrument from a gun that uses an explosive charge. Air pistols are limited to a maximum muzzle energy of 6 ft/lb and the energy of air rifles is limited to 12 ft/lb. A typical sporting rifle bullet produces a muzzle energy of 1,000 to 3,000 ft/lb.
4 Dec 1996 : Column 1061
The speech by the hon. Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith) revealed a problem. There are accidents with airguns--I had a tragic constituency case--but of course there are accidents with knives, bicycles, motor cars and everything else. We cannot live in a 100 per cent. safe world. I have no reason to believe that, if we license or control the 3 million airguns that are in circulation, there will be fewer accidents.
Shooting is an olympic sport at which Britain excels. Airguns are hardly ever used in violent crime, and 75 per cent. of crimes involving--
Mr. Galbraith:
In the cases that I dealt with, the injuries were intentional: they were not accidents.
Sir Jerry Wiggin:
In that case, I hope that those who were involved were charged with attempted murder. We cannot make assertions based on such cases, because, if the person was intent on assault, he could have carried it out with something other than an airgun. Simply removing airguns will not solve the problem. As an experienced surgeon, the hon. Gentleman must have dealt with millions of different cases. But he made the case that some--very few--are airgun accidents.
Hospital statistics show that airguns are annually reported to be involved in an estimated 2,200 accidents, and I readily acknowledge that that is far too many. To put that figure into perspective, however, the same table shows that 7,750 accidents involve golf equipment, and 13,200 involve hockey sticks. So let us try to keep a sense of proportion in this matter.
We make laws in the House, with the very best of intentions, but they are not always observed. It is no good saying that simply changing the law will solve the problem, because, in this case, I am absolutely sure it will not.
The airgun community is beginning to regulate itself. The Airgun Shooters Association, which was formed about three years ago, now has a membership of more than 5,000, and it is growing. It runs proficiency courses, which cover legal and safety issues, and it is working with other organisations to develop airgun safety training courses.
If we were to go down the road of licensing, there would be a great movement away from legitimate airgun use, and it would have little or no effect on crime. It would drive many airguns underground, and I am sure that many of them would end up in the hands of unsupervised young people. It would also produce an intolerable burden on the police and the courts, diverting resources from the real problem of far more dangerous and illegal firearms.
4 Dec 1996 : Column 1062
The change of the age limit from 17 to 18 seems irrelevant. Let us face the fact that, at 17, one can be in charge of a motor vehicle, which is potentially a far more lethal weapon than an airgun.
I hope that the House will reject these new clauses and amendments. However, I should like to tell the Minister how much we welcome the amendment on carbon dioxide. A situation in which the gas used to power a gun may legally be air but not carbon dioxide is ridiculous. It is common sense to change that, and the opportunity has been taken, for which I am very grateful.
Mr. Frank Cook:
I should like quickly to make several points. The first relates to my presence in, or absence from, the Chamber during this debate. I must chair a parliamentary group on medical aid at 5 o'clock. Although I shall attempt to assist the House later in today's proceedings, I shall, sadly, have to be absent while the group meets.
The surgical experience of my hon. Friend the Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith) is awesome, and unquestionably we must take it into account. His contributions to that field are internationally renowned.
He made the point that licensing airguns will not eliminate abuse of them, and he is absolutely right. However, I ask hon. Members to turn that argument on its head, and ask themselves whether higher calibre firearms will no longer be abused once they are no longer licensed. The issues of licensing weapons and legally using them are thus divorced. It much more a matter of how well weapon licensing and use are supervised by the authorities that are empowered to do so--the police.
Hon. Members have said much about the Firearms Consultative Committee in supporting these new clauses and amendments. For some reason, people believe that there is some bias in the committee. I cannot understand why anyone should adopt such a view. I am happy that my hon. Friend the Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden smiles at that, but if he met the members of the committee, he would share their exasperation and frustration, because so little attention is paid to their recommendations. Far from being proponents of a wild gun culture, they are pleading for safety, safety and safety again, and for the implementation of recommended regulations. The Government have consistently ignored them.
I understand the comments of the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Mr. Salmond) on police powers. There are variations from one region to another in the style of policing, operational feasibility, success and achievement. When I raised the case of Mr. Richard Law, I was not in any way defending him. I do not know what he has done or has not done. He might be a saint, or he might be a sinner--I have no idea. My point is that the police had the powers to act.
I remind the House, for probably the fifth time, that constituents have often complained to me about the rigour with which Cleveland constabulary applies its powers. My reaction has always been, "Thank God for that. I am proud of Cleveland constabulary. If you care about your sporting activities and want to continue to participate in this leisure pursuit, you should be pleased, and accept the fact that the police are intent on keeping it safe." Our
4 Dec 1996 : Column 1063
Those are important points. I wish that my hon. Friends on the Front Bench had spent more time listening to what I have said than discussing something else.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause read a Second time and added to the Bill.
Motion made, and Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:--
The House divided: Ayes 213, Noes 270.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
4 Dec 1996 : Column 1066
Sir Jerry Wiggin:
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
'. Section 1(3)(b) of the 1968 Act (which exempts air weapons from the requirements of that section unless declared specially dangerous) shall be amended by substituting for the words "declared by rules made by the Secretary of State under section 53 of this Act to be specially dangerous" the words "specified by rules made by the Secretary of State under section 53 of this Act.".'.--[Mr. Straw.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Mrs Irene
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Allen, Graham
Alton, David
Ashdown, Paddy
Barnes, Harry
Battle, John
Beckett, Mrs Margaret
Beggs, Roy
Bell, Stuart
Benn, Tony
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Bermingham, Gerald
Berry, Roger
Betts, Clive
Blunkett, David
Boateng, Paul
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bradley, Keith
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Byers, Stephen
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Campbell-Savours, D N
Canavan, Dennis
Carlile, Alex (Montgomery)
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clark, Dr David (S Shields)
Clarke, Eric (Midlothian)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coffey, Ms Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Ms Jean
Cousins, Jim
Cummings, John
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try SE)
Cunningham, Dr John
Cunningham, Ms R (Perth Kinross)
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Alistair
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Bryan (Oldham C)
Davies, Chris (Littleborough)
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Dewar, Donald
Dixon, Don
Donohoe, Brian H
Dowd, Jim
Eagle, Ms Angela
Eastham, Ken
Etherington, Bill
Evans, John (St Helens N)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret
Faulds, Andrew
Flynn, Paul
Forsythe, Clifford (S Antrim)
Foster, Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Fyfe, Mrs Maria
Galbraith, Sam
Garrett, John
Gerrard, Neil
Golding, Mrs Llin
Graham, Thomas
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Gunnell, John
Hain, Peter
Hall, Mike
Hanson, David
Harman, Ms Harriet
Henderson, Doug
Hendron, Dr Joe
Heppell, John
Hodge, Ms Margaret
Hood, Jimmy
Hoon, Geoffrey
Howarth, Alan (Stratf'd-on-A)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Hoyle, Doug
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Robert (Ab'd'n N)
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Hutton, John
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Adam
Jackson, Mrs Helen (Hillsborough)
Jamieson, David
Jenkins, Brian D (SE Staffs)
Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Ynys Mon)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Dr L (B'ham Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd SW)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Keen, Alan
Kennedy, Charles (Ross C & S)
Khabra, Piara S
Kilfoyle, Peter
Kirkwood, Archy
Lewis, Terry
Liddell, Mrs Helen
Litherland, Robert
Lloyd, Tony (Stretf'd)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loyden, Eddie
Lynne, Ms Liz
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
Macdonald, Calum
McFall, John
McKelvey, William
McLeish, Henry
Maclennan, Robert
McMaster, Gordon
McWilliam, John
Madden, Max
Maddock, Mrs Diana
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mandelson, Peter
Marek, Dr John
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Martin, Michael J (Springburn)
Martlew, Eric
Maxton, John
Meacher, Michael
Meale, Alan
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute)
Milburn, Alan
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Morgan, Rhodri
Morley, Elliot
Morris, Alfred (Wy'nshawe)
Morris, John (Aberavon)
Mowlam, Ms Marjorie
Mullin, Chris
Nicholson, Miss Emma (W Devon)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Brien, William (Normanton)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
Pearson, Ian
Pendry, Tom
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Pope, Greg
Powell, Sir Raymond (Ogmore)
Prentice, Mrs B (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Primarolo, Ms Dawn
Purchase, Ken
Radice, Giles
Raynsford, Nick
Reid, Dr John
Rendel, David
Robertson, George (Hamilton)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rogers, Allan
Rooker, Jeff
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Rowlands, Ted
Ruddock, Ms Joan
Salmond, Alex
Sedgemore, Brian
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Robert
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)
Spearing, Nigel
Spellar, John
Steinberg, Gerry
Straw, Jack
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Thurnham, Peter
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Touhig, Don
Tyler, Paul
Wallace, James
Walley, Ms Joan
Wardell, Gareth (Gower)
Wareing, Robert N
Watson, Mike
Welsh, Andrew
Wicks, Malcolm
Wigley, Dafydd
Williams, Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Wilson, Brian
Winnick, David
Wise, Mrs Audrey
Worthington, Tony
Wray, Jimmy
Wright, Dr Tony
Mrs. Jane Kennedy and
Mr. Dennis Turner.
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Alison, Michael (Selby)
Amess, David
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashby, David
Atkins, Robert
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baker, Kenneth (Mole V)
Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset)
Baldry, Tony
Banks, Matthew (Southport)
Banks, Robert (Harrogate)
Bates, Michael
Batiste, Spencer
Bendall, Vivian
Beresford, Sir Paul
Biffen, John
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham)
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia
Bowden, Sir Andrew
Bowis, John
Boyson, Sir Rhodes
Brandreth, Gyles
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Sir Graham
Brooke, Peter
Brown, Michael (Brigg Cl'thorpes)
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Budgen, Nicholas
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butcher, John
Butler, Peter
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, Sir Kenneth (Linc'n)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Channon, Paul
Chapman, Sir Sydney
Churchill, Mr
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochf'd)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coe, Sebastian
Colvin, Michael
Congdon, David
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Curry, David
Davies, Quentin (Stamf'd)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Deva, Nirj Joseph
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, Iain
Dunn, Bob
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Tim
Elletson, Harold
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'ld)
Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Evans, Nigel (Ribble V)
Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Evennett, David
Faber, David
Fabricant, Michael
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fishburn, Dudley
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Freeman, Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Sir Peter
Gale, Roger
Garnier, Edward
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodlad, Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gorst, Sir John
Grant, Sir Anthony (SW Cambs)
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Grylls, Sir Michael
Gummer, John
Hague, William
Hamilton, Sir Archibald
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hanley, Jeremy
Hannam, Sir John
Hargreaves, Andrew
Haselhurst, Sir Alan
Hawkins, Nick
Hawksley, Warren
Heald, Oliver
Heath, Sir Edward
Hendry, Charles
Heseltine, Michael
Hicks, Sir Robert
Higgins, Sir Terence
Hill, Sir James (Southampton Test)
Hogg, Douglas (Grantham)
Horam, John
Hordern, Sir Peter
Howard, Michael
Howell, David (Guildf'd)
Howell, Sir Ralph (N Norfolk)
Hughes, Robert G (Harrow W)
Hunt, David (Wirral W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensb'ne)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Douglas
Jack, Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard (Colchester N)
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (W Herts)
Jopling, Michael
Key, Robert
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Kynoch, George
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lamont, Norman
Lang, Ian
Lawrence, Sir Ivan
Legg, Barry
Leigh, Edward
Lennox-Boyd, Sir Mark
Lester, Sir Jim (Broxtowe)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Peter
Lloyd, Sir Peter (Fareham)
Lord, Michael
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, John
MacKay, Andrew
Maclean, David
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick
Madel, Sir David
Maitland, Lady Olga
Major, John
Malone, Gerald
Mans, Keith
Marland, Paul
Marlow, Tony
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Mates, Michael
Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Mayhew, Sir Patrick
Merchant, Piers
Mills, Iain
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David (NW Hants)
Monro, Sir Hector
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Moss, Malcolm
Needham, Richard
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Sir Michael
Newton, Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Sir Cranley
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Patnick, Sir Irvine
Patten, John
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Pickles, Eric
Porter, David
Portillo, Michael
Powell, William (Corby)
Rathbone, Tim
Redwood, John
Renton, Tim
Richards, Rod
Riddick, Graham
Robathan, Andrew
Roberts, Sir Wyn
Robertson, Raymond S (Ab'd'n S)
Robinson, Mark (Somerton)
Roe, Mrs Marion
Rowe, Andrew
Ryder, Richard
Sackville, Tom
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Shephard, Mrs Gillian
Shepherd, Sir Colin (Heref'd)
Shersby, Sir Michael
Sims, Sir Roger
Skeet, Sir Trevor
Soames, Nicholas
Spencer, Sir Derek
Spicer, Sir Jim (W Dorset)
Spicer, Sir Michael (S Worcs)
Spink, Dr Robert
Sproat, Iain
Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
Stanley, Sir John
Stephen, Michael
Stern, Michael
Stewart, Allan
Streeter, Gary
Sumberg, David
Sweeney, Walter
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thomason, Roy
Thompson, Sir Donald (Calder V)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thornton, Sir Malcolm
Townsend, Cyril D (Bexl'yh'th)
Tracey, Richard
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trotter, Neville
Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Viggers, Peter
Waldegrave, William
Walden, George
Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Waterson, Nigel
Watts, John
Wells, Bowen
Wheeler, Sir John
Whitney, Ray
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Miss Ann
Wiggin, Sir Jerry
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Yeo, Tim
Young, Sir George
Mr. Timothy Wood and
Mr. Richard Ottaway.
'(1) The Secretary of State shall, in accordance with a scheme made by him, make payments to persons who incur any loss as a result of this Act and to whom subsection (2) below applies.
(2) This section applies to persons who on 15th October 1996 were--
(a) operating a target shooting club or association and were not thereby carrying on a trade with a view to profit; or
(b) were registered firearms dealers or were engaged in the business of the manufacture or repair of firearms or in the provision of ranges.
(3) Persons operating a target shooting club or association under subsection (2) above shall not receive payment unless--
(a) the club or association was for the use of firearms which have or will become unlawful by virtue of section 1 above; and
(b) the club or association is not able to meet the criteria set out in section 16 for the grant of a licence under section 15; and
(c) such persons have responsibility for any debt, mortgage, lease or other liability in connection with the club or association.
(4) Persons to whom subsection (2)(b) above applies shall receive payment equal to the value of the loss of business and such loss shall be defined as the difference between the value of the business on 15th October 1996 and the value of the business following the commencement of this Act.'.--[Sir Jerry Wiggin.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
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