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Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris): With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendments Nos. 96, 97, 112 and 113.

Amendment No. 57, in clause 14, page 7, line 4, after 'club', insert

'or a qualified range conducting officer'.

Government amendments Nos. 114, 87, 88, 98, 99, 89 and 104.

Miss Widdecombe: I shall deal first with amendment No. 57 tabled by my hon. Friends, which I urge the House to resist. [Interruption.] I cannot support the amendment, which is unnecessary.

Clause 14(1) allows the responsible officer of a licensed pistol club to have in his possession the small-calibre pistols belonging to the members of that club without holding a separate firearm certificate for them. The amendment would extend that exemption to any qualified range conducting officer, but clause 14(2) already allows other officers or members of a licensed pistol club to enjoy the same exemption from the certification requirement as the responsible officer if the chief officer of police for the area in which the premises are situated has given his written permission for them to do so.

That ensures that unrestricted access to small-calibre pistols at a licensed club is limited to the responsible officer or other persons who have been approved by the local chief police officer. We believe that is right to ensure that the safety of the public is safeguarded. We are not suggesting that range officers are not responsible people, but we believe that unrestricted access to pistols must be tightly controlled.

New clause 6 and amendments Nos. 87, 88 and 89 have been tabled in response to an undertaking that I gave in Committee to my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson) in relation to licensed pistol clubs and approved rifle clubs. The amendments will improve the administrative procedures for dealing with the granting of licences and approvals for gun clubs.

New clause 6 provides for a lesser fee of £21 for grant or renewal of an approval for a rifle club when it is granted or renewed at the same time as a pistol club licence is granted to that club, or its pistol club licence is renewed, as the case may be. A lower fee is appropriate in those circumstances, because most of the

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checking that has to be undertaken by the police before the pistol club licence is granted or renewed will usually also suffice for the purposes of a rifle club approval. As a general rule, I believe the fee should be one quarter of the full rifle club approval fee, which is currently £84. The reduced fee will apply only where grant or renewal of the licence and approval take place at the same time.

7.45 pm

New clause 6 will also allow joint clubs--where both pistol and rifle target shooting activities take place--to have their licence and their approval run from the same date. Again, that will benefit the police, and it will also assist club officials.

Amendments Nos. 87 and 88 will allow the licence for a pistol club to run for a maximum period of six years, the same period as that of a rifle club approval. I must make it clear, however, that the Secretary of State will retain the power to revoke his approval for a rifle club at any time before the expiry of that period and he will also have the power to revoke the licence of a pistol club. Allowing pistol club licences and rifle club approvals to run conterminously will ease the administrative burden on the police by allowing them to undertake checks on those premises from where both types of club will operate at the same time. I hope that it will also ease the burdens on the clubs.

Amendment No. 98 is a consequential technical amendment to the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988. It would require a description of the pistols stored at a licensed club to be entered in that club's register. The list of items contained at clause 21(2) would be expanded to cover this important particular. Under the present wording, the description of the pistols could be caught only by the general paragraph (e) and would have to be covered by separate regulations. That course could be avoided by means of this minor amendment, which also emphasises the importance of the register containing accurate descriptions of each pistol.

Amendment No. 99 clarifies the matters in respect of which entries in the pistol register have to be made within 24 hours--when the pistol is first stored at the premises, or its subsequent removal from or return to those premises. Amendment No. 113 is merely a drafting change, intended to improve on the language of the Bill and to add to clarity.

Sir Jerry Wiggin: I apologise to my hon. Friend but, having spent a lifetime shooting, my hearing is not what it should be and there was also the noise of hon. Members departing. I think that she fully covered amendment No. 57, but I gather that she is not entirely enamoured of it. I hope that she will consider the practicalities of nominating an individual. I may have misunderstood her--I shall study her words with care--but I hope that she will be sympathetic to the practical problems of a small club, where, if someone were ill, a whole day could be wiped out. We are not asking for much, and I shall study my hon. Friend's remarks in the morning.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

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New clause 1

Extension of the Firearms Act 1968 to prohibit small firearms in Scotland

'.--(1) The 1968 Act shall be amended as follows.
(2) After section 5A there shall be inserted the following section--
"Prohibition of small firearms in Scotland
5B.--(1) A person commits an offence if, without the authority of the Defence Council, he has in his possession while in Scotland, or purchases or acquires in Scotland, or manufactures, sells or transfers in Scotland, any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall, other than an air weapon to which section 1 of this Act does not apply, a muzzle-loading gun or firearm designed as a signalling apparatus.
(2) For the purposes of this section, any detachable, folding, retractable or other movable butt-stock shall be disregarded in measuring the length of any firearm.
(3) For the purposes of this section a muzzle-loading gun is a gun which is designed to be loaded at the muzzle end of the barrel or chamber with a loose charge and a separate ball (or other missile).".
(3) In Part I of Schedule 6 (prosecution and punishment of offences), after the entry for section 5(6) there shall be inserted the following entry--

"Section 5B(1).	Having, etc. a small firearm in Scotland.	(a) Summary	6 months or a fine of the statutory maximum; or both	--
	(b) On indictment	5 years or a fine; or both.".	'.	--
				--[Mr. Salmond.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. Salmond: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 6, in clause 1, page 2, line 8, at end insert--

'(10) The provisions of subsection (1)(aba) apply only to England and Wales.'.

No. 7, in clause 2, page 2, line 18, after '5', insert

'or by virtue of section 5B'.

No. 8, in clause 3, page 2, line 27, after '5', insert

'or by virtue of section 5B'.

No. 9, in clause 4, page 2, line 33, after '5', insert

'or by virtue of section 5B'.

No. 10, in clause 5, page 2, line 42, after '5', insert

'or by virtue of section 5B'.

No. 16, in clause 13, page 6, line 27, at end insert

'and

(d) the premises are outside Scotland.'.

No. 17, in clause 15, page 7, line 18, after 'premises', insert 'outside Scotland'.

No. 11, in clause 40, page 19, line 33, at end add--

'(6) Part II of this Act extends to England and Wales only.'.

Mr. Salmond: New clause 1 is in the name of a variety of hon. Members. Amendments Nos. 6 to 10 are

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consequential to new clause 1 and amendments Nos. 16, 17 and 11 seek to do the same thing as new clause 1 from a slightly different--perhaps more direct--approach.

Hon. Members will see that new clause 1 is supported by what can best be described as a rainbow coalition of Members. From the list of sponsors of the amendment, it appears that there are probably three reasons why hon. Members have put their name to it.

The hon. Members for Foyle (Mr. Hume), for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan) and for Argyll and Bute (Mrs. Michie) and I have all argued strongly for a handgun ban, and will seek each and every opportunity to argue that case. The support of the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) and of the hon. Member for Liverpool, Mossley Hill (Mr. Alton), who is not in the Chamber at the moment, for the new clause is motivated by the fact that they see the opportunity for Scotland to lead the way for England and Wales if it is successful.

The hon. Members for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) and for North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley) do not agree with the objective of banning handguns, but none the less believe that the Scottish will is most decided on the matter, and that Scotland should decide for itself rather than having something imposed from elsewhere. I welcome the support of all those hon. Members for amendments that are important in terms of both principle and the direction that they take.

I shall examine the idea of leading by example and the idea of letting Scotland decide on this matter, above all matters, in the aftermath of the Dunblane massacre. First, however, I shall talk about practicality.

Some hon. Members have said both here and outside the House that it would not be possible to implement a total handgun ban in Scotland if one did not exist in England and Wales. I think that it was the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) who said on "Question Time" that he could foresee someone going from Scotland to buy a handgun from a registered dealer south of the border and taking it back into Scotland because, as he put it, there are no border controls.

That betrays a total lack of understanding of the nature of the legislation. As we understand it, under the Bill it would not be possible to transport handguns except under strictly supervised conditions. The only handguns allowed--the .22 calibre weapons--would be in licensed pistol clubs in secure conditions.

As a result of the new clause, there would be no licensed pistol clubs in Scotland, so I would argue strongly that not only is it totally practical to have a total ban in Scotland, but such a situation would be easier to police and more practical than the legislation that would apply to England and Wales.

When .22 calibre weapons are transported, there are bound to be circumstances in which doubt arises. That is one of the weaknesses in the legislation. There will be doubt about whether the various mechanisms and protections surrounding transportation have been properly respected.

In Scotland, the position would be black and white. No civilian handguns would be legal and there would be no transporting of handguns. That position would be more effective and easier to police. The argument that a ban in

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one part of the United Kingdom but not in others would not be practical without border controls or an independent Scotland is false.

After all, the Bill is not United Kingdom legislation; it does not cover Northern Ireland, which has different regulations and rules on handguns now. Few hon. Members would seriously argue that we could impose legislation willy-nilly on Northern Ireland without taking account of the issue of personal security, which is so important in the Province--and that applies equally to those of us who argue that handguns should be banned. It is therefore possible and practical to have a handgun ban in Scotland.

I shall now explain the two main arguments behind the new clause. The idea of leading by example has attracted support among hon. Members from both England and Wales. As I have said in previous debates, I believe that elements in the Bill are a messy compromise between the ambitions, aims and objectives of the Secretary of State for Scotland, who was looking for a total ban on handguns, and the resistance of the Home Secretary, who did not share that position.

The Government have been left with a messy compromise that isolates .22 calibre weapons, saying that they can somehow be rendered safe, while higher-calibre weapons must be banned. That distinction has fallen apart, faced with the arguments advanced against it.

If the Government are confident of their position, why will they not allow a total ban in Scotland, while enacting their present proposals for legislation in England and Wales, and then compare the two and see which system is more accepted and can be better enforced? I think that the ban in Scotland would quickly lead the way to introducing different legislation in England and Wales.

My second argument is that we should let the Scottish people decide on the issue. My view, which I know many other Scottish Members share, is that among the Scottish population there is a settled will in favour of a handgun ban.

It is often said during debates on the Bill, especially by those who are upset or worried about it, and who think that it is spatchcocked, rushed legislation, that it has been carried forward on a tide of emotionalism, and that those of us who argue for a handgun ban are reacting to an emotional argument.

I do not believe that that is the position that has been reached in Scotland. Certainly there is understandable emotion in the aftermath of the Dunblane massacre, but we have moved well beyond that point in arguing the case through. There is a settled opinion in Scotland that a total ban on the civilian use of handguns is the most effective response to the tragedy at Dunblane.

When we debated the matter two weeks ago, on a free vote, 56 of the 72 Scottish Members argued and voted for a handgun ban. I believe that that reflected the overwhelming majority view among the Scottish population, which has been revealed in many ways. The House should find it in its heart to allow Scotland to decide on the issue--to respect the wishes of the Scottish people and accept the new clause.

It has been said to me over the past few days that I have tabled a nationalist new clause, which could be supported only by someone who believed in an independent Scotland. I do not believe that that is true.

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The incorporating unionist tendency, as represented by the Government, has recently been making an enormous play of saying that Scotland can play a distinctive part within an incorporating Union. I cannot see much concrete evidence for that idea--except perhaps the odd stone here and there. It is a difficult argument to sustain, but those who support that position should be prepared to allow a distinctive judgment and response in Scotland to an event such as the tragedy of Dunblane.

I understand that such legislation would be covered by the devolutionist proposals, too. With devolution, legislation different from that approved by the Westminster Parliament here in London could well emerge from the Scottish Assembly in Edinburgh; so it is possible to support the distinction from a devolutionist point of view.

From a pro-independence position, too, I think that it is important for the Scottish people to determine something that is vitally linked to our social life and to how we react to tragedies.

The issue has brought together people from all political parties and from none. One of the experiences that I am sure we have all shared in responding to the Snowdrop campaigners is the realisation that people from outwith politics have played such a magnificent role in arguing the case. It involved many talented people who had found themselves for one reason or another outside the political process, or who did not feel that they should engage in party political debate.

The issue has brought together opinion in Scotland within parties, too. As some hon. Members will know, I am from West Lothian. I come from Linlithgow, so I am a "Lithca lad", a "black bitch". That may confirm some hon. Members' opinions--although I must tell the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Robertson) that the description applies to both sexes. We are very forward-looking about such things in Lithca.

In West Lothian, politics is pretty rough at local level. There are endless arguments between the Labour party and the Scottish National party. Indeed, in the council group there are endless arguments within both parties, too. Yet, on the issue of banning handguns, both parties on the council united within and between themselves to say, "We do not want handguns in the West Lothian community." I venture to suggest that an issue that can unite the Labour and Scottish National party council groups in West Lothian has truly united the vast majority of Scottish opinion. The new clause asks the House of Commons to respect that opinion in Scotland. It is practical, it is possible and it is the right thing to do. I ask hon. Members to give it their support.

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