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10.45 pm
Amendment No. 115 addresses an issue that we discussed in Committee, and significant points about it were raised during that debate by the Minister of State. The amendment generally deals with the issues raised in Committee, although there is a real need for the guidance to the police that will accompany the legislation, to ensure that due caution is taken in assessing whether all reasonable action has been taken in ensuring compliance with the legislation.
Therefore, it will come as no surprise that Government amendment No. 115 is attractive to the Opposition. However, amendment Nos. 59 to 61 create a loophole which I think that the public would regard as unnecessary. Ultimately, the legislation's purpose is to ensure public safety. That must come before every other consideration.
Mr. Brooke:
I rise again in support of my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Sir J. Wiggin), in the context of his amendment affecting those who compete at international level. During the Bill's Committee stage on the Floor of the House, on November 18, I spoke about the training that international competitors are required to follow. I followed up on that with a letter to my hon. Friend the Minister of State, to which, as I said in an earlier debate, she has replied with admirable promptness. I appreciate that.
My hon. Friend concluded her letter with the paragraph:
My hon. Friend the Minister of State said in Committee that there might be occasions on which pistol owners require to have their pistols outside a club, but envisaged that those occasions would be rare, and thus exceptional. The would be covered by the Bill. I alluded in my letter to her to a constituent of mine, who has since sent me the details of the required training programme at national and international level. It involves 45 different episodes and events a year away from the home club. I do not know whether that is what my hon. Friend calls "rare" or "exceptional".
The virtue of the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare is that they meet not only the requirements of that programme comprising
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Mr. Frank Cook:
I speak in support of sound logic, and I have been a bit concerned about some of the arguments that have been made in this debate. The raison d'etre of this legislation originates in an incident involving a mentally deranged person who had a firearms certificate and membership in several gun clubs--the membership records of which have disappeared, because the police have confiscated them and now refuse to release them, so that they can be examined properly.
On the basis of that deranged behaviour, we are being told that our national sportsmen and sportswomen, whom we formerly hailed as heroes when they returned with gold medals--which were in very short supply in any other sport--cannot be trusted. That is tantamount to saying that Fatima Whitbread should not have been allowed to hold a javelin in case she thrust it into the chest of a policeman on traffic duty. It is preposterous to use one extreme to try to prove an argument at the other end of the spectrum. It is unfair. It is unwarranted. It is unjustifiable. It is inexcusable.
I am sick of hearing about loopholes. We hear loophole, loophole, loophole all the time. Some people estimate that there are 250,000 illegally held weapons in the country, but other authorities tell us that there may be 4 million. That is a large loophole. The police tell me that 2,500 handguns are crossing the channel from the continent. That is another large loophole. I have heard very little about closing those loopholes. We should spend more time thinking about that than trying to stop law-abiding people following a perfectly justifiable and respectable pastime.
Miss Widdecombe:
I appreciate the sentiments behind amendments Nos. 59, 60 and 61, but I cannot imagine any justification for treating members of national or international squads differently from other small-calibre pistol owners.
We considered carefully whether a pistol outside a club on permit should be conveyed by its owner or by a third party. We concluded that unless there were exceptional circumstances, transport should be by a third party. We consider it essential that, in all but the most exceptional cases, pistol and owner should be quite separate when they are both in public. There may be occasions on which pistol owners need to have their pistol outside a club, but we envisage that they will be as I have said--exceptional.
I also do not think that permits should be granted for a year at a time. The chief officer needs to decide in each case that he is granting a permit for a proper purpose, as listed in clause 8(3). It is unlikely that any purpose would justify a permit of a year's duration. Granting a blanket permit would not allow him to do that and may mean that individuals had their pistols outside club premises for other reasons.
Government amendment No. 115 has been tabled in response to the amendment tabled in Committee by my hon Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Atkinson). It
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Amendment negatived.
Amendments made: No. 84, in page 4, line 21, leave out
and insert
No. 85, in page 4, line 22, at beginning insert--
No. 86, in page 4, leave out lines 24 and 25.
No. 115, in page 5, line 3, at end insert--
Madam Deputy Speaker:
With this we may take Government amendments Nos. 70 to 72 the following: Amendment. No. 12 in page 5, line 29, at end insert--
Mr. Henderson:
Amendment No. 12 was tabled because of concern that has been expressed by a number of organisations and individuals about what happens to the guns once they have been handed into police stations. We are talking about 160,000 guns. There are obviously a number of different ways in which they could be disposed of. They could be melted down or--presumably--sold. There would be considerable concern if those guns were sold and ended up in the hands of international gun dealers, who then disposed of them in areas of the world either where people were concerned about guns ending up or where there were bans on the export of guns from the United Kingdom for whatever reason.
The amendment requires the Government to stipulate what they intend to do with the guns that will be collected, and it suggests that the Government report to the House at a later stage on the way in which those guns will be disposed of.
Miss Widdecombe:
I regret that I cannot support amendment No. 12. I assume that the intention behind it
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I assure the House that probably the vast majority--but not all--of the weapons surrendered will be destroyed by the police in accordance with force practice locally. I see no merit in parliamentary involvement in that operational exercise by the police, and ask the House to reject the amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendments made: No. 70, in page 5, line 26, at end insert 'or section 25 below'.
No. 71, in page 5, line 28, after 'firearms', insert 'or ammunition'.
No. 72, in page 5, line 29, after 'firearms' insert 'or ammunition'.--[Miss Widdecombe.]
"Inevitably there will be sportsmen and women who will be disadvantaged by these measures. However the Government must make its first priority the protection of the public. We are determined that target shooting may continue but only under the very strictest of conditions."
I understand the principle inherent in the paragraph, which underlines the overall principle of the Bill. However, I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me if I say that, in the context of the national squad, it is insulting. The hon. Member for Monklands, East (Mrs. Liddell) has just reinforced that belief, in a not notably well-informed speech.
'of a licensed pistol club'
'at which it is required to be kept'.
'( ) conveying the pistol to those premises following--
(i) the release of the pistol from a police station at which it has been kept under Schedule 1 to this Act;
(ii) the purchase or acquisition of the pistol; or
(iii) a change in the licensed premises at which the pistol is required to be kept;'.
'(5A) In proceedings against any person for an offence under subsection (5)(a) above, it shall be a defence for him to prove that he took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to avoid the commission of the offence.'.--[Mr. Ottaway.]
Amendment proposed: No. 69, in page 5, line 24, after 'firearms', insert 'or ammunition'.--[Miss Widdecombe.]
'(3) The Secretary of State shall make a scheme for the disposal of firearms surrendered under this Act.
(4) No scheme shall be made by the Secretary of State under this section before he has laid before Parliament a report on the general principles which he proposes should underlie the scheme and each House has come to a resolution in respect of that report.'.
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